TRADE DAY: Sandin / Engvall / Schenn

[Arn]

Wonder if something is going to be packaged up to bring us an insurance third goalie so if Murray doesn?t recover we don?t end up with Woll in the playoffs.

 

[bustaheims]

Sandin is a loss, but hardly a "big" one. I'll eat my words if he becomes Stralman 2.0 but I really don't see it. And even so I do think adding McCabe and removing Sandin makes you a better team to win now.

Agreed. Sandin is going to be a solid 2nd pairing guy one day, but his skating, size, and defensive deficiencies are going to keep him from being a Stralman type loss. He?s a good young player, but hardly an irreplaceable one.

 

[Bender]

Some of this doesn't make sense to me yet.

To me, as I posted before, Engvall or Kerfoot was a given to get under the cap when Murray returns.
Getting a 3rd for Engvall seems like fair value.

That trade was a necessity in the wake of the others.
That alone made room for Murray's return off LTIR and signing Knies.
I'm ok to this point.

Gustafsson? A knock on the Leafs D might be that they lack scoring. I believe it looks worse than it is because they've been using a 4th forward on the PP. So he wanted a more offensive dman? He got one but I doubt he is as good defensively. And I don't like the return given where they are right now - a window of this year and next to win a Cup with this group. Next year Gustavsson is gone or UFA expensive. Sandin made good progress this year and would likely have been better next year. I don't care for this deal. Not something I would have done. Take them years to develop the pick unless they flip that pick.

Schenn. Depth? ok But where are all these dmen going to play. We have 9 on the roster and Benn in the AHL? Another trade coming?

We have a top 4 NHL team with significant turnover. Whatever team chemistry they had, it has been rattled. A lot of these guys are friends with each other. He's removed Anderson, Benn, Engvall & Sandin and added Schenn, Gustavsson, O'Reilly, McCabe, Acciari & Lafferty - 6 players with Knies as a potential 7th. Offhand, I can't recall seeing anything quite like that just prior to the trade deadline.

I understand the chemistry bit, but these guys are professionals. I'm not overly concerned about chemistry as much as being playoff hardened. Engvall hardly did anything in any playoff round. At any rate, I don't think the Leafs are done. Let's see the post deadline roster before we do the autopsy.

 

[Guilt Trip]

We have a top 4 NHL team with significant turnover. Whatever team chemistry they had, it has been rattled. A lot of these guys are friends with each other. He's removed Anderson, Benn, Engvall & Sandin and added Schenn, Gustavsson, O'Reilly, McCabe, Acciari & Lafferty - 6 players with Knies as a potential 7th. Offhand, I can't recall seeing anything quite like that just prior to the trade deadline.

He's removed 2 regular players, that's it. They'll be fine and they'll get over it pretty quickly. They're pros.

 

[Zee]

We have a top 4 NHL team with significant turnover. Whatever team chemistry they had, it has been rattled. A lot of these guys are friends with each other. He's removed Anderson, Benn, Engvall & Sandin and added Schenn, Gustavsson, O'Reilly, McCabe, Acciari & Lafferty - 6 players with Knies as a potential 7th. Offhand, I can't recall seeing anything quite like that just prior to the trade deadline.

He's removed 2 regular players, that's it. They'll be fine and they'll get over it pretty quickly. They're pros.

I don't think he's done.

 

[Guilt Trip]

We have a top 4 NHL team with significant turnover. Whatever team chemistry they had, it has been rattled. A lot of these guys are friends with each other. He's removed Anderson, Benn, Engvall & Sandin and added Schenn, Gustavsson, O'Reilly, McCabe, Acciari & Lafferty - 6 players with Knies as a potential 7th. Offhand, I can't recall seeing anything quite like that just prior to the trade deadline.

He's removed 2 regular players, that's it. They'll be fine and they'll get over it pretty quickly. They're pros.

I don't think he's done.

Maybe but keep in mind the Leafs have enough space to sign Knies and have Murray on the roster right now.

 

[cw]

Some of this doesn't make sense to me yet.

To me, as I posted before, Engvall or Kerfoot was a given to get under the cap when Murray returns.
Getting a 3rd for Engvall seems like fair value.

That trade was a necessity in the wake of the others.
That alone made room for Murray's return off LTIR and signing Knies.
I'm ok to this point.

Gustafsson? A knock on the Leafs D might be that they lack scoring. I believe it looks worse than it is because they've been using a 4th forward on the PP. So he wanted a more offensive dman? He got one but I doubt he is as good defensively. And I don't like the return given where they are right now - a window of this year and next to win a Cup with this group. Next year Gustavsson is gone or UFA expensive. Sandin made good progress this year and would likely have been better next year. I don't care for this deal. Not something I would have done. Take them years to develop the pick unless they flip that pick.

Schenn. Depth? ok But where are all these dmen going to play. We have 9 on the roster and Benn in the AHL? Another trade coming?

We have a top 4 NHL team with significant turnover. Whatever team chemistry they had, it has been rattled. A lot of these guys are friends with each other. He's removed Anderson, Benn, Engvall & Sandin and added Schenn, Gustavsson, O'Reilly, McCabe, Acciari & Lafferty - 6 players with Knies as a potential 7th. Offhand, I can't recall seeing anything quite like that just prior to the trade deadline.

I understand the chemistry bit, but these guys are professionals. I'm not overly concerned about chemistry as much as being playoff hardened. Engvall hardly did anything in any playoff round. At any rate, I don't think the Leafs are done. Let's see the post deadline roster before we do the autopsy.

Over the summer, you might see 30% of a roster change. It will take them 20 games to shake it out some. And then another batch of games to settle it down. They've got about 20 games to shake out and settle it down changing 30% of their roster. Yes, they're pros, etc. It is likely at the very least that the 2nd, 3rd & 4th lines and the 2nd & 3rd pairings are changing. That is a fair amount for the coaches and players to assimilate in 20 games. Going down the stretch, they could look rough going through this and give Tampa home ice (which is a big deal for Tampa). I'm a Leafs fan hoping it all works out but there is some risk here with that much change ...

 

[Zee]

Regardless of what happens, this will long be remembered as the trade deadline for the ages. If it works they'll be a statue built for Dubas and people will retroactively go back and dissect his "masterclass". If it all goes south... Eeeeeeeeek

 

[cw]

Odds are probably against Dubas. I don't like everything he's done. But I don't blame him a bit for trying. If I were in his boots, I'd be swinging for the fences too.

Pat Quinn had a pretty busy deadline in 2004 when the Leafs were going to replace him as GM. But I think this one surpasses that.

 

[Zee]

Odds are probably against Dubas. I don't like everything he's done. But I don't blame him a bit for trying. If I were in his boots, I'd be swinging for the fences too.

Pat Quinn had a pretty busy deadline in 2004 when the Leafs were going to replace him as GM. But I think this one surpasses that.

There's still two and a half days until the deadline too, and I don't think he's finished. This is nuts.

 

[rdowdall]

It's been a couple of hours since the Leafs made a deal.  I'm so bored now!!!?

 

[cw]

Odds are probably against Dubas. I don't like everything he's done. But I don't blame him a bit for trying. If I were in his boots, I'd be swinging for the fences too.

Pat Quinn had a pretty busy deadline in 2004 when the Leafs were going to replace him as GM. But I think this one surpasses that.

There's still two and a half days until the deadline too, and I don't think he's finished. This is nuts.

9 D with Benn in the AHL and Mete on LTIR.
I can go along with maybe 8 but 9?
I can't make sense of what he has in mind there.

I think Rielly is untouchable with his contract - not his best season.
Giordano has been amazing.
He's crazy if he goes near Liljegren.
I think Brodie has been fine.
He just got McCabe in the top 4.

So he's got Gustavsson, Schenn, Holl & Timmins fighting over the 6th spot unless they're going with 7 D.

Someone has to go. He just got Gustavsson and Schenn. Looks like UFA Holl or Timmins (though he extended recently).

 

[Kin]

Apart from everything else it's kind of nice to see Schenn coming back. For a guy who was unfairly burdened with expectations I was always rooting for him and he's seemed to carve out a really solid career for himself as a 3rd pairing guy so value proposition aside I do like the move from a strict fan-sense. NIK GRADE: B+

I'm effectively ok with the Sandin trade. I think there's a real chance he turns into a good player but I think in today's NHL the real question you have to ask in a scenario like this is whether or not there's any chance he becomes the kind of player you can't sign for an equivalent $$$ amount on the UFA market or acquire via trade for comparable assets. To me, that seems less likely. That said, I really don't like giving up on talented young players and I don't know that I see the wisdom here yet in terms of the team being appreciably better going into the playoffs. NIK GRADE: B-

With Engvall, I sort of think we'd reached the end of the rope with him in terms of seeing if he'd turn into the sort of 3rd liner who could fetch a bigger return. Sadly, he just never rounded into a real defensive specialist or a guy with offensive upside so, again, it's not so much a question of whether or not he's "worth" a third rounder as most 3rd round picks don't turn into NHL regulars but if we have to go into the off-season could we, every year, bargain shop and effectively replace him? I think we can. NIK GRADE: C

 

[Guilt Trip]

Odds are probably against Dubas. I don't like everything he's done. But I don't blame him a bit for trying. If I were in his boots, I'd be swinging for the fences too.

Pat Quinn had a pretty busy deadline in 2004 when the Leafs were going to replace him as GM. But I think this one surpasses that.

There's still two and a half days until the deadline too, and I don't think he's finished. This is nuts.

9 D with Benn in the AHL and Mete on LTIR.
I can go along with maybe 8 but 9?
I can't make sense of what he has in mind there.

I think Rielly is untouchable with his contract - not his best season.
Giordano has been amazing.
He's crazy if he goes near Liljegren.
I think Brodie has been fine.
He just got McCabe in the top 4.

So he's got Gustavsson, Schenn, Holl & Timmins fighting over the 6th spot unless they're going with 7 D.

Someone has to go. He just got Gustavsson and Schenn. Looks like UFA Holl or Timmins (though he extended recently).

If Murray's good to go, the Leafs have around 925K in cap space with a 23 man roster. They can sign Knies anytime after the deadline when rosters expand.
They actually don't need to do anything. The one thing Holl has going for him is PKing. He's our best PKing Damn, like it or not and that has value. Injuries are going to happen and remember when Rielly, Brodie and Muzz we're all out at the same time?

 

[lamajama]

Odds are probably against Dubas. I don't like everything he's done. But I don't blame him a bit for trying. If I were in his boots, I'd be swinging for the fences too.

Pat Quinn had a pretty busy deadline in 2004 when the Leafs were going to replace him as GM. But I think this one surpasses that.

There's still two and a half days until the deadline too, and I don't think he's finished. This is nuts.

9 D with Benn in the AHL and Mete on LTIR.
I can go along with maybe 8 but 9?
I can't make sense of what he has in mind there.

I think Rielly is untouchable with his contract - not his best season.
Giordano has been amazing.
He's crazy if he goes near Liljegren.
I think Brodie has been fine.
He just got McCabe in the top 4.

So he's got Gustavsson, Schenn, Holl & Timmins fighting over the 6th spot unless they're going with 7 D.

Someone has to go. He just got Gustavsson and Schenn. Looks like UFA Holl or Timmins (though he extended recently).

If Murray's good to go, the pop Leafs have around 925K in cap space with a 23 man roster. They can sign Knies anytime after the deadline when rosters expand.
They actually don't need to do anything. The one thing Holl has going for him is PKing. He's our best PKing Damn, like it or not and that has value. Injuries are going to happen and remember when Rielly, Brodie and Muzz we're all out at the same time?

The issue with Holl can be the times the Leafs are NOT on the PK?

 

[Bill_Berg]

Apart from everything else it's kind of nice to see Schenn coming back. For a guy who was unfairly burdened with expectations I was always rooting for him and he's seemed to carve out a really solid career for himself as a 3rd pairing guy so value proposition aside I do like the move from a strict fan-sense. NIK GRADE: B+

I'm effectively ok with the Sandin trade. I think there's a real chance he turns into a good player but I think in today's NHL the real question you have to ask in a scenario like this is whether or not there's any chance he becomes the kind of player you can't sign for an equivalent $$$ amount on the UFA market or acquire via trade for comparable assets. To me, that seems less likely. That said, I really don't like giving up on talented young players and I don't know that I see the wisdom here yet in terms of the team being appreciably better going into the playoffs. NIK GRADE: B-

With Engvall, I sort of think we'd reached the end of the rope with him in terms of seeing if he'd turn into the sort of 3rd liner who could fetch a bigger return. Sadly, he just never rounded into a real defensive specialist or a guy with offensive upside so, again, it's not so much a question of whether or not he's "worth" a third rounder as most 3rd round picks don't turn into NHL regulars but if we have to go into the off-season could we, every year, bargain shop and effectively replace him? I think we can. NIK GRADE: C

I think the sum of these trades needs to be considered for judgement, but that being said, I don't think Dubas is finished.

 

[azzurri63]

Some of the moves are exactly what's needed. Dubas has maybe finally figured out talent and talent alone doesn't win in this league come playoff time. No different than the price Brisebois paid for Jeannot. Maybe overpayment but the kind of players that are made for playoff hockey.

 

[gunnar36]

I overall like these moves, though I still feel that Engvall had a lot more to offer to this lineup as a 3rd liner then Calle Jarnkrok does.  Considering Jarnkrok netted the Preds a 2nd, 3rd and 7th to go to Flames at last years deadline, it feels a little underwhelming getting only a 3rd for Engvall.

Although Engvall played too soft for his size, he was difficult to play against with his length and reach, often causing turnovers and you cant undervalue those strengths in playoff hockey. His game and confidence seemd to be growing as the season has progressed and he will be an asset to Isles.

To me, Jarnkrok seems to have that Mike Craig syndrome where he always shows hustle and body parts seemingly move fast but somehow he does not get from A to B that quickly overall. I would dump him for a draft pick and let a Holmberg, McMann (or Knies?!?), take his spot

 

[Kin]

I think the sum of these trades needs to be considered for judgement, but that being said, I don't think Dubas is finished.

For sure, once the deadline is come and gone the totality of Dubas' moves will be ripe for going over.

 

[princedpw]

I overall like these moves, though I still feel that Engvall had a lot more to offer to this lineup as a 3rd liner then Calle Jarnkrok does.  Considering Jarnkrok netted the Preds a 2nd, 3rd and 7th to go to Flames at last years deadline, it feels a little underwhelming getting only a 3rd for Engvall.

Although Engvall played too soft for his size, he was difficult to play against with his length and reach, often causing turnovers and you cant undervalue those strengths in playoff hockey. His game and confidence seemd to be growing as the season has progressed and he will be an asset to Isles.

To me, Jarnkrok seems to have that Mike Craig syndrome where he always shows hustle and body parts seemingly move fast but somehow he does not get from A to B that quickly overall. I would dump him for a draft pick and let a Holmberg, McMann (or Knies?!?), take his spot

I keep remembering some stat that shows Engvall + Kampf are great, even with all the defensive starts but Kampf without Engvall can?t push the puck down the ice.

Would have liked to dump Jarnkrok as well ? even if just for more cap space next year.