TRADE DAY: Sandin / Engvall / Schenn

[OldTimeHockey]

I'm not sure I'm on board with the roster changing THIS much.  Keefe is going to have his hands full figuring it all out.

Why. He moved out 2 guys that have ahard time with the heavy game.

Sandin is a big loss.  As I said earlier, we'll be rueing this like we did Stralman.  Engvall's return is an irritant to me, but I don't have a problem moving him, even though I like parts of his game.

And my point is that rejiggering the chemistry will be a big challenge for the coaches.

Maybe it's just me, but was there a lot of "rueing" done over Stralman? Like did anyone look back over the years and think "man if we could turn back time". I'll give you that Stralman had a pretty ok career. But personally, I don't remember ever thinking "we'd be so much better if we had Anton Stralman".

I'm not over the moon on the Sandin deal, but I also don't think losing him moves the needle a lot. He was the number 5 or 6 dman on this team for much of the season....even with a rash of injuries. His use was trending downwards and was going to be even less with McCabe added to the roster. I mean, if we're going to look solely at offensive upside(which is the majority of what Sandin brings at this point), Connor Timmins has 7 less points in 30 less games.

Sure I'd like a little more return for Sandin as I do think he has potential to be pretty good. Unfortunately, he hasn't shown much of that yet so his value isn't going to be as high as we'd like it to be.

I think the Stralman thing is, if you at all the Leafs trades over the last 20 years, he's one of the few players traded away, who was a legit NHL player, and went on to have a decent career. Most didn't.

It would be great if all Leafs trades worked out solely for the Leafs...I don't think that could ever be the case. If it did, the Leafs would be hailed as having the best scouting/management departments in the league.

 

[Guilt Trip]

SANDIN:
Dubas has done Sandin a favour and got him more playing time (the point of contention in his contract hold up). That's all it is. The Capital's LD side is wide open and he'll get to play with someone like Carlson or Jensen or van Riemsdyk under almost no pressure to win (just feed Ovi's record chase). While Carlson is out injured and Gustafsson is gone, they have no more PP options. A bit of a trickier pass for a lefty to feed Ovechkin's office, but Sandin can figure it out.

For the Leafs, they've clearly indicated they can't wait for 100+ more games for Sandin to reach the level they need today. Rielly's re-signing and the myriad of motivations behind it include it taking too much time for Sandin to fill that spot (and maybe too much cap space while waiting).


ENGVALL:
Similar course in a front office favoured project (Marlies champ) that just ran out of reasonable time within their cap framework. You can get his on-ice results (in a different way + more) by paying less; Engvall had lots of chances to demonstrate he could take that opportunity but he just didn't. Maybe the best 4th line in the world can teach him how to forecheck more physically. Engvall has the body of Optimus Prime but unfortunately also has with the processor speed of a Pentium 2 paired with the instincts of a perimeter playmaker.


Overall:
I really liked both players, but the shine starts to wear off when they climb near 3M, which is what next contracts would've been hovering around. Like the Kapanen/Johnsson/Dermott trades, it feels like a small step back when viewing these moves in isolation, and pretty ruthless from Dubas, but he has created room to change the identity and complexion of the bottom half of the roster. More will to support the skill. We've seen Matthews get fired up from Simmonds or Matt Martin shenanigans; I don't recall anyone on the bench being particularly excited for Engvall's minutes.

Excellent post Herman. I think Dubas actually did Sandin a favour by moving him as well. I really liked him but I'm not sure how much Sandin will improve from here on out. Let's not forget that while he'll be 23 in a few days, he's been a pro for 5 years now. He joined the Marlies in 18/19. His skating(speed) isn't going to improve and neither is his ability to box out players going to the net. He doesn't have the strength to do it. That's the biggest difference between him and Liljegren. I think Dubas did well not only getting a depth D man for him but recouping a 1st, even though it's a late pick, which is where he was originally picked.
Wish Sandman well.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The only regret I have with Engvall is we never got to see him really get tried in the top-6. Especially since over the past 2-3 years we've seen worse players get extended chances there. Maybe something could have clicked playing with more skilled players. It's also a bit of a shame that the C experiment the Marlies put him through didn't pay more dividends.

 

[Kin]

I think the Stralman thing is, if you at all the Leafs trades over the last 20 years, he's one of the few players traded away, who was a legit NHL player, and went on to have a decent career. Most didn't.

I feel like I can think of quite a few players the Leafs traded away who went on to have decent careers.

 

[Kin]

As much as I was annoyed to see Stralman succeed in a non-Leafs uniform, do we really think he'd be a difference maker once JFJ traded Rask away?

Yes? He was a legit top 4(and sometimes top 2) defenseman. Those guys do make a difference  to a club. If what you mean by this question is "Would he have singlehandedly solved all of the Leafs problems?" then the answer is no but that's also kind of a ridiculous way to judge any player.

 

[cw]

I think the Stralman thing is, if you at all the Leafs trades over the last 20 years, he's one of the few players traded away, who was a legit NHL player, and went on to have a decent career. Most didn't.

I'm not sure he's going to have a career as good as Stralman's in terms of winning a cup. They're about the same size and have similarities like some trouble managing physical forwards. Sandin has gotten stronger in that area. I think Sandin will put up a little bit better offensive numbers when given the opportunity. I think his hockey IQ is as good. Barring serious injury, he should have a good career.

 

[cw]

The only regret I have with Engvall is we never got to see him really get tried in the top-6. Especially since over the past 2-3 years we've seen worse players get extended chances there. Maybe something could have clicked playing with more skilled players. It's also a bit of a shame that the C experiment the Marlies put him through didn't pay more dividends.

The one very impressive thing I recall about him was how well Kerfoot, Mikheyev & Engvall checked McDavid when they faced him and were used together. Mikheyev's speed had a bunch to do with it but Kerfoot & Engvall helped. I can't recall if they did it more than once ... I thought they might have been a decent checking line who could score. Obviously, it didn't pan out.

 

[dappleganger]

I think the Stralman thing is, if you at all the Leafs trades over the last 20 years, he's one of the few players traded away, who was a legit NHL player, and went on to have a decent career. Most didn't.

I feel like I can think of quite a few players the Leafs traded away who went on to have decent careers.

Name one not named Alexander Steen...

Honestly, it's slim pickings.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_season_team/Toronto_Maple_Leafs/2003-04/1

 

[Kin]

Name one not named Alexander Steen...

Honestly, it's slim pickings.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_season_team/Toronto_Maple_Leafs/2003-04/1

I mean, it feels like this is going to get bogged down in the semantics of what constitutes a "decent" career but, like, Schenn certainly seems to qualify.

 

[Bullfrog]

...

I do not see how they can stand pat with 9 NHL dmen and Benn having cleared waivers for a 10th and Mete on LTIR. They're not done. Dubas would normally have had a press scrum. I wonder if his silence is because something else is going to happen and he did not want to field questions until it was done.

I'm not sure I understand the concern about having 9 dmen. Why can't they stand pat with that? Some of them have to suck up that they won't play much.

 

[cw]

I think the Stralman thing is, if you at all the Leafs trades over the last 20 years, he's one of the few players traded away, who was a legit NHL player, and went on to have a decent career. Most didn't.

I feel like I can think of quite a few players the Leafs traded away who went on to have decent careers.

Name one not named Alexander Steen...

Honestly, it's slim pickings.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_season_team/Toronto_Maple_Leafs/2003-04/1

Quick glance - maybe these players:

Mason Marchment
Nazem Kadri
Carter Verhaeghe
Carl Gunnarsson
Luke Schenn
Matt Stajan

 

[Kin]

...

I do not see how they can stand pat with 9 NHL dmen and Benn having cleared waivers for a 10th and Mete on LTIR. They're not done. Dubas would normally have had a press scrum. I wonder if his silence is because something else is going to happen and he did not want to field questions until it was done.

I'm not sure I understand the concern about having 9 dmen. Why can't they stand pat with that? Some of them have to suck up that they won't play much.

I mean, they probably could but it doesn't seem like a very good use of assets when you could flip a guy for assets but you'd rather him stick around at 8th on your depth chart.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I'm not sure I understand the concern about having 9 dmen. Why can't they stand pat with that? Some of them have to suck up that they won't play much.

One issue would be signing Knies. The Leafs are at a full 23 man roster. If they're planning on signing Knies they'll need to attempt to get Gustafsson through waivers (seems very unlikely) before the trade deadline, or just cross their fingers that someone could end up on the IR at the end of the season to open up a spot that way.

 

[dappleganger]

Name one not named Alexander Steen...

Honestly, it's slim pickings.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_season_team/Toronto_Maple_Leafs/2003-04/1

I mean, it feels like this is going to get bogged down in the semantics of what constitutes a "decent" career but, like, Schenn certainly seems to qualify.

Dude... they got JVR for Schenn. I think that one worked out ok.

Sorry, I was definitely thinking where the Leafs made a "bad trade" where they traded someone who went on to be better after leaving the Leafs but didn't generate an adequate return, which is what is worrisome about the Sandin move.

 

[dappleganger]

I think the Stralman thing is, if you at all the Leafs trades over the last 20 years, he's one of the few players traded away, who was a legit NHL player, and went on to have a decent career. Most didn't.

I feel like I can think of quite a few players the Leafs traded away who went on to have decent careers.

Name one not named Alexander Steen...

Honestly, it's slim pickings.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_season_team/Toronto_Maple_Leafs/2003-04/1

Quick glance - maybe these players:

Mason Marchment
Nazem Kadri
Carter Verhaeghe
Carl Gunnarsson
Luke Schenn
Matt Stajan

A few of those guys were not "legit" NHL'ers when they were traded. Previous post explains what I meant. Sorry for being ambiguous.

For example, Leafs knew what they had in Kadri when they traded him. Leafs don't know what Sandin is at this point, no one does, similarities to the Stralman trade back in the day.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Highlander]

I liked Engvall a lot, always seemed he'd slip into a Superman outfit and break out and be the monster his potential whispered of.  In a strict business sense we turned a 7th round pick into a 3rd round pick.

 

[herman]

Name one not named Alexander Steen...

Honestly, it's slim pickings.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_season_team/Toronto_Maple_Leafs/2003-04/1

Hilariously, Kessel, Bozak, Kadri, Schenn have all gone on to win Cups after leaving the Leafs, within a relatively short span of time

Excellent post Herman. I think Dubas actually did Sandin a favour by moving him as well. I really liked him but I'm not sure how much Sandin will improve from here on out. Let's not forget that while he'll be 23 in a few days, he's been a pro for 5 years now. He joined the Marlies in 18/19. His skating(speed) isn't going to improve and neither is his ability to box out players going to the net. He doesn't have the strength to do it. That's the biggest difference between him and Liljegren. I think Dubas did well not only getting a depth D man for him but recouping a 1st, even though it's a late pick, which is where he was originally picked.
Wish Sandman well.

.

Sandin will be a pretty good defenseman, maybe needs some sheltering with offensive minutes. He thinks the game well, but needs a heavy safety net on his right side (see Rielly). Could we have gotten more in the trade? Maybe with more time, but there was like 1 day to clear cap for Murray's return from LTIR.

The only regret I have with Engvall is we never got to see him really get tried in the top-6. Especially since over the past 2-3 years we've seen worse players get extended chances there. Maybe something could have clicked playing with more skilled players. It's also a bit of a shame that the C experiment the Marlies put him through didn't pay more dividends.

There's a little bit of Kapanen in Engvall's game in terms of a lack of creativity/vision. It made sense to leverage his skills as a destroyer (defense) rather than creator (offense). If we were in a rebuild, I'd try to program him along the lines of Tage Thompson. Just learn a couple of patterns to get to the middle and learn how to release his shot faster (a pretty tall order).

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Sandin will be a pretty good defenseman, maybe needs some sheltering with offensive minutes. He thinks the game well, but needs a heavy safety net on his right side (see Rielly). Could we have gotten more in the trade? Maybe with more time, but there was like 1 day to clear cap for Murray's return from LTIR.

Nah, there was no cap rush associated with the Sandin move. Engvall's trade cleared up more than enough cap space to have had both him and Schenn on the roster with enough room to take Murray off LTIR.

 

[bustaheims]

I'm not sure I understand the concern about having 9 dmen. Why can't they stand pat with that? Some of them have to suck up that they won't play much.

One issue would be signing Knies. The Leafs are at a full 23 man roster. If they're planning on signing Knies they'll need to attempt to get Gustafsson through waivers (seems very unlikely) before the trade deadline, or just cross their fingers that someone could end up on the IR at the end of the season to open up a spot that way.

Yeah, but that problem goes away Friday evening. No roster limits after the deadline.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Yeah, but that problem goes away Friday evening. No roster limits after the deadline.

Oh damn, that completely slipped my mind.