TRADE DAY: Sandin / Engvall / Schenn

[dappleganger]

Name one not named Alexander Steen...

Honestly, it's slim pickings.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_season_team/Toronto_Maple_Leafs/2003-04/1

Hilariously, Kessel, Bozak, Kadri, Schenn have all gone on to win Cups after leaving the Leafs, within a relatively short span of time

You're taking me out of context, all those players already had decent NHL careers when they were traded. See below.

I think the Stralman thing is, if you at all the Leafs trades over the last 20 years, he's one of the few players traded away, who was a legit NHL player, and went on to have a decent career. Most didn't.

 

[herman]

Name one not named Alexander Steen...

Honestly, it's slim pickings.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_season_team/Toronto_Maple_Leafs/2003-04/1

Hilariously, Kessel, Bozak, Kadri, Schenn have all gone on to win Cups after leaving the Leafs, within a relatively short span of time

You're taking me out of context, all those players already had decent NHL careers when they were traded. See below.

I think the Stralman thing is, if you at all the Leafs trades over the last 20 years, he's one of the few players traded away, who was a legit NHL player, and went on to have a decent career. Most didn't.

I'm not refuting you, per se, just pointing out our sad, sad curse.

 

[herman]

Sandin will be a pretty good defenseman, maybe needs some sheltering with offensive minutes. He thinks the game well, but needs a heavy safety net on his right side (see Rielly). Could we have gotten more in the trade? Maybe with more time, but there was like 1 day to clear cap for Murray's return from LTIR.

Nah, there was no cap rush associated with the Sandin move. Engvall's trade cleared up more than enough cap space to have had both him and Schenn on the roster with enough room to take Murray off LTIR.

Oh yeah. Them taking a contract back (-600k) should indicate it wasn't strictly a cap move.

 

[cw]

...

I do not see how they can stand pat with 9 NHL dmen and Benn having cleared waivers for a 10th and Mete on LTIR. They're not done. Dubas would normally have had a press scrum. I wonder if his silence is because something else is going to happen and he did not want to field questions until it was done.

I'm not sure I understand the concern about having 9 dmen. Why can't they stand pat with that? Some of them have to suck up that they won't play much.

They could. Aside from no room for Knies, what about injuries to the forwards? There are only 12 of them on the roster. One injury and you are into the AHLers. They might be able to flip a dman to get a forward.

As well, I do not understand what they're going to do with all 9. I also think Benn and potentially Mete on LTIR help them with that.

I'm also not too excited about taking one of the best faceoff centers in the league and sticking him on the wing while going with a bottom 6 that will be hard pressed to score.

Bunting-Matthews-Marner
F1_____-Tavares-Nylander
Knies/Lefferty-O'Reilly-Jarnkrok/Kerfoot
Lafferty/Kerfoot-Kampf-Acciari

To get "F1" forward, trade a dman plus a pick to get a $4 mil left winger (50% retained) who brings some grit and can score some - some of what that line needs.

That line up is very strong down the middle - all four 52+ faceoff% centers.
Pretty darn good set of right wingers.
A fair set of left wingers.
All lines have some grit and three of them, some scoring ability.

That 3rd line could help with the scoring - make it tougher to shut down 3 lines instead of two. The 3rd line is centered by a past Conn Smythe - Selke winner - who can defend - be a shutdown line.

The extra D would be traded to help acquire a decent left winger that would help them do that. Tavares would be playing his natural position.

I'm sure many here would have ideas. That is one idea on how they might better use those 9 dmen assets to improve the roster.

 

[Kin]

Dude... they got JVR for Schenn. I think that one worked out ok.

Sorry, I was definitely thinking where the Leafs made a "bad trade" where they traded someone who went on to be better after leaving the Leafs but didn't generate an adequate return, which is what is worrisome about the Sandin move.

This is starting to feel like a pretty narrowly defined concept.

 

[cw]

I'm not sure I understand the concern about having 9 dmen. Why can't they stand pat with that? Some of them have to suck up that they won't play much.

One issue would be signing Knies. The Leafs are at a full 23 man roster. If they're planning on signing Knies they'll need to attempt to get Gustafsson through waivers (seems very unlikely) before the trade deadline, or just cross their fingers that someone could end up on the IR at the end of the season to open up a spot that way.

Yeah, but that problem goes away Friday evening. No roster limits after the deadline.

The cap is still in effect though, right?
So how does that work for example, to get Knies into some games (assuming he's going to sign ..)?

Bettman was making a stink about guys buried on LTIR to get around the cap ...

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The cap is still in effect though, right?
So how does that work for example, to get Knies into some games (assuming he's going to sign ..)?

Bettman was making a stink about guys buried on LTIR to get around the cap ...

Granted this could change at any point but as things stand if the Leafs took Murray off LTIR and sent Woll down CF shows them with $928,754 in cap space with a 23 man roster. So just a shade under what Knies' max cap hit could be ($950k).

 

[bustaheims]

The cap is still in effect though, right?
So how does that work for example, to get Knies into some games (assuming he's going to sign ..)?

Bettman was making a stink about guys buried on LTIR to get around the cap ...

Cap is still in effect, yes.

As for Knies, with the moves that have been made recently, I think it's become less likely the team sees him as a real option for any sort of meaningful role in the playoffs. That being said, making enough to room to fit him under the cap isn't overly difficult.

And, the Bettman stink was more about acquiring players to stash on LTIR until the playoffs - especially if there's reason to believe they're healthy enough to go before the end of the season.

 

[azzurri63]

Move some of this excess D, Kerfoot to Arizona along with 2023 1st and whatever for Chychrun and were good to go.

 

[Bender]

As much as I was annoyed to see Stralman succeed in a non-Leafs uniform, do we really think he'd be a difference maker once JFJ traded Rask away?

Yes? He was a legit top 4(and sometimes top 2) defenseman. Those guys do make a difference  to a club. If what you mean by this question is "Would he have singlehandedly solved all of the Leafs problems?" then the answer is no but that's also kind of a ridiculous way to judge any player.

I didn't say that, but I think in the context of the wider problems the Leafs had his being on or off the team was probably irrelevant. Like I said, he bounced around the league. He wasn't remotely in the same league as losing someone like Rask.

 

[cw]

The cap is still in effect though, right?
So how does that work for example, to get Knies into some games (assuming he's going to sign ..)?

Bettman was making a stink about guys buried on LTIR to get around the cap ...

Granted this could change at any point but as things stand if the Leafs took Murray off LTIR and sent Woll down CF shows them with $928,754 in cap space with a 23 man roster. So just a shade under what Knies' max cap hit could be ($950k).

For clarity, per your scenario above (Murray off LTIR, Woll sent down), if the Leafs signed Knies for $928,754, they could have 24 players on their roster and be in compliance with the cap.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The cap is still in effect though, right?
So how does that work for example, to get Knies into some games (assuming he's going to sign ..)?

Bettman was making a stink about guys buried on LTIR to get around the cap ...

Granted this could change at any point but as things stand if the Leafs took Murray off LTIR and sent Woll down CF shows them with $928,754 in cap space with a 23 man roster. So just a shade under what Knies' max cap hit could be ($950k).

For clarity, per your scenario above (Murray off LTIR, Woll sent down), if the Leafs signed Knies for $928,754, they could have 24 players on their roster and be in compliance with the cap.

Capfriendly's numbers might not be accurate to the exact dollar, but other than that yeah. As busta reminded me, roster limits go kaput after the trade deadline but you still need to be cap compliant. That Leafs would have enough cap space to carry a 24th roster player after the deadline if no further moves are made.

So they could also call up say a Holmberg/McMann/Steeves if they wanted to carry an extra forward immediately after the deadline. As a reminder, Knies will likely only be finished with his NCAA season with about a week left in the NHL regular season.

 

[Bender]

Regarding Knies we're only looking to burn a year on his contract, correct? I really feel like there's a bit too much hype surrounding him coming onto the team and being a difference maker.

 

[Kin]

I didn't say that, but I think in the context of the wider problems the Leafs had his being on or off the team was probably irrelevant.

Like I said, you could have said that about anyone. In the context of a team wide dearth of talent even Connor McDavid can play on lousy teams.

 

[Kin]

Move some of this excess D, Kerfoot to Arizona along with 2023 1st and whatever for Chychrun and were good to go.

If a lousy package like that was enough to land Chychrun he'd have gone long ago.

 

[azzurri63]

Move some of this excess D, Kerfoot to Arizona along with 2023 1st and whatever for Chychrun and were good to go.

If a lousy package like that was enough to land Chychrun he'd have gone long ago.

The whatever is some prospect/s. I wasn't stating that was it. Maybe you give up on Knies or Niemela and another 1st. Chychrun would be your #1 D and someone who can actual quarterback and be a threat on the PP. Reilly has been a disappointment too bad he's got a NMC because he can go as far as I'm concerned. been a major disappointment this year.

 

[Bender]

I didn't say that, but I think in the context of the wider problems the Leafs had his being on or off the team was probably irrelevant.

Like I said, you could have said that about anyone. In the context of a team wide dearth of talent even Connor McDavid can play on lousy teams.

Good players can play on bad teams, sure, But it doesn't refute the argument that some players are more consequential than others, which is what I'm driving at. We could've had Stralman back because he was available multiple times in his career so I don't view him as some huge loss that couldn't be recovered. He had a tidly little career and that's good for him, but comparatively you are basically never getting a McDavid or Rask or Matthews unless the stars align. Losing Sandin and Stralman is nowhere near as big a loss as losing Rask.

 

[dappleganger]

Dude... they got JVR for Schenn. I think that one worked out ok.

Sorry, I was definitely thinking where the Leafs made a "bad trade" where they traded someone who went on to be better after leaving the Leafs but didn't generate an adequate return, which is what is worrisome about the Sandin move.

This is starting to feel like a pretty narrowly defined concept.

I tried to clarify. Sorry.

People don't moan about the trading Schenn away cuz they got JVR in return.

People do moan about trading Stralman away cuz they got diddly squat in return for him.

I think that's why people feel the way they do about Stralman's departure from the Leafs.

 

[Kin]

Good players can play on bad teams, sure, But it doesn't refute the argument that some players are more consequential than others, which is what I'm driving at.

I feel reasonably confident that nobody was putting forth the position that all players are equally important but, to be fair, I didn't read every post.

 

[cw]

The cap is still in effect though, right?
So how does that work for example, to get Knies into some games (assuming he's going to sign ..)?

Bettman was making a stink about guys buried on LTIR to get around the cap ...

Cap is still in effect, yes.

As for Knies, with the moves that have been made recently, I think it's become less likely the team sees him as a real option for any sort of meaningful role in the playoffs. That being said, making enough to room to fit him under the cap isn't overly difficult.

And, the Bettman stink was more about acquiring players to stash on LTIR until the playoffs - especially if there's reason to believe they're healthy enough to go before the end of the season.

I do not think Dubas is betting heavily on it. But Dubas attending his final game less than a week before the deadline suggests they are very interested in signing him promptly and checking him out for these playoffs.

Unlike many coming into the NHL under these circumstances, he's going to be surrounded by very good talent.
They need a left winger - which is what he is.
As a winger, he has the shortest learning curve for a NHL player compared to the other positions.
His reputation is that he's very intelligent, smart and creative player. He tends to pass first but has a strong, accurate shot. Those characteristics will help him make the transition.
Unlike a lot of drafted players, he has NHL size and appears to have close to NHL strength (6'3" 210lbs).

Chris Kreider helped the Rangers in the playoffs right out of the NCAA. It is not without precedent.

So it is not completely crazy to check him out. He might be able to help them.