Unofficial 2012/2013 Armchair GM

[Zee]

Everyone is a genius after the fact.

No. Dopes are still dopes before and after. The server crash makes it sadly unverifiable but I can state with 100% accuracy that the Raycroft trade looked ridiculous and was called so by lots of people on this site, including me, at the very minute it was made.

OK.

 

[bustaheims]

I do remember that Pierre MacGuire was over the moon about the deal for the Leafs so that isn't exactly true.

Raycroft had a .926 SP two years before the trade and was injured the following year; Leafs had 2 top goalie prospects so it wasn't exactly a head scratcher. I think the perception has changed a bit, considering Pogge's subsequent futility and Rask's success but I can't remember much of the perception surrounding the deal (apart from MacGuire's positive assessment).

Well, that's why I said "pretty much everyone" rather than simply "everyone." Around here, the deal was widely panned as being, as I said, bad and unnecessary. On top of that, guys like Gerber, Legace and others along those lines were UFAs that summer - any of which would have been good enough for a couple years until the Leafs really know what they had in both Rask and Pogge. Macguire was about the only person I remember who really liked the deal for the Leafs. At best, other media members recognized the Leafs paid a hefty price for a guy they were, at best, cautiously optimistic about.

 

[Kin]

I do remember that Pierre MacGuire was over the moon about the deal for the Leafs so that isn't exactly true.

He did say pretty much everyone. 

Raycroft had a .926 SP two years before the trade and was injured the following year;

Except that's not really true. What you're forgetting is that in between Raycroft's one good year and the year he stunk it up in Boston was the lockout which drastically changed circumstances for a lot of goalies. Raycroft hadn't shown anything in the new environment of the post-lockout league and had, in fact, struggled.

Leafs had 2 top goalie prospects so it wasn't exactly a head scratcher.

Except, and this was argued when the trade was made, what subsequently happened showed the faulty logic behind that line of thinking. Having two good goaltending prospects doesn't make one expendable because neither one is a sure thing. Having two good prospects at any position doesn't devalue either one.

 

[Andy007]

I do remember that Pierre MacGuire was over the moon about the deal for the Leafs so that isn't exactly true.

Raycroft had a .926 SP two years before the trade and was injured the following year; Leafs had 2 top goalie prospects so it wasn't exactly a head scratcher. I think the perception has changed a bit, considering Pogge's subsequent futility and Rask's success but I can't remember much of the perception surrounding the deal (apart from MacGuire's positive assessment).

Well, that's why I said "pretty much everyone" rather than simply "everyone." Around here, the deal was widely panned as being, as I said, bad and unnecessary. On top of that, guys like Gerber, Legace and others along those lines were UFAs that summer - any of which would have been good enough for a couple years until the Leafs really know what they had in both Rask and Pogge. Macguire was about the only person I remember who really liked the deal for the Leafs. At best, other media members recognized the Leafs paid a hefty price for a guy they were, at best, cautiously optimistic about.

And that's why I said "not exactly true." At least one media guy loved the trade for Toronto and others were, as you put it, "cautiously optimistic." Zee was commenting on how the trade has been warped based on the subsequent fortunes of Pogge, Rask and Raycroft and I think, to an extent, he is right.

 

[bustaheims]

And that's why I said "not exactly true." At least one media guy loved the trade for Toronto and others were, as you put it, "cautiously optimistic." Zee was commenting on how the trade has been warped based on the subsequent fortunes of Pogge, Rask and Raycroft and I think, to an extent, he is right.

Macguire and the rest of the talking heads represent a very small percentage of the "everyone" I'm referring to.

 

[Omallley]

I do remember that Pierre MacGuire was over the moon about the deal for the Leafs so that isn't exactly true.

Raycroft had a .926 SP two years before the trade and was injured the following year; Leafs had 2 top goalie prospects so it wasn't exactly a head scratcher. I think the perception has changed a bit, considering Pogge's subsequent futility and Rask's success but I can't remember much of the perception surrounding the deal (apart from MacGuire's positive assessment).

Well, that's why I said "pretty much everyone" rather than simply "everyone." Around here, the deal was widely panned as being, as I said, bad and unnecessary. On top of that, guys like Gerber, Legace and others along those lines were UFAs that summer - any of which would have been good enough for a couple years until the Leafs really know what they had in both Rask and Pogge. Macguire was about the only person I remember who really liked the deal for the Leafs. At best, other media members recognized the Leafs paid a hefty price for a guy they were, at best, cautiously optimistic about.

Legace was the one guy who couldn't get a contract that summer who I know a bunch of folks were clamouring for here over trading a quality asset to get an unknown quantity...

EDIT: I've often thought that the Leafs should hire JFJ, get his input on a transaction, and do the exact opposite.

 

[Andy007]

He did say pretty much everyone. 

Yea I know. It's a nice trick that you also employ in your arguments so as to technically be covered against counter arguments

 

[bustaheims]

EDIT: I've often thought that the Leafs should hire JFJ, get his input on a transaction, and do the exact opposite.

Depends on the transaction. He was pretty good with the waiver wire and at the draft table (though, that had a lot more to do with the scouts he hired than his input).

 

[Kin]

Yea I know. It's a nice trick that you also employ in your arguments so as to technically be covered against counter arguments

Referring to an opinion held by most but not all is a "trick"? Pointing out that the opinion is not held by everyone is a counter argument?

I knew I picked the wrong week to give up horse tranquilizers.

 

[Omallley]

EDIT: I've often thought that the Leafs should hire JFJ, get his input on a transaction, and do the exact opposite.

Depends on the transaction. He was pretty good with the waiver wire and at the draft table (though, that had a lot more to do with the scouts he hired than his input).

Trades and free agent acquisitions mostly. His drafting record with the picks he did retain was quite good - I'll give him that...

 

[bustaheims]

Trades and free agent acquisitions mostly. His drafting record with the picks he did retain was quite good - I'll give him that...

Going through his transaction record, there are a couple smaller moves that we're only really seeing the dividends from now. The pick that became Leo Komarov was acquired for Nathan Perrott. The picks that became Reimer and Holzer were both acquired in the same deal, giving up a 2006 3rd round pick that Chicago used for a guy who is still in Europe. The pick that became Frattin came from trading Tellqvist.

His bigger moves were largely awful, but a lot of his smaller moves worked out nicely.

 

[Andy007]

Yea I know. It's a nice trick that you also employ in your arguments so as to technically be covered against counter arguments

Referring to an opinion held by most but not all is a "trick"? Pointing out that the opinion is not held by everyone is a counter argument?

I knew I picked the wrong week to give up horse tranquilizers.

Or to work on your reading comprehension.

 

[Jalili]

I don't see much to disagree as far as what Nik+Busta are saying about how the trade was received.

Most people were chewing it to pieces, from Toronto's perspective.

When you put a man's back against the wall he's liable to make really bad decisions.

 

[rdowdall]

Pfffft....JFJ, he's so two and a half GM's ago.

 

[Champ Kind]

The equivalent of making the Raycroft trade today would be like the Leafs trading Morgan Rielly for Ryan Whitney.

You're exagerrating with this example.  Yes, Rask was highly regarded, but there were two goalies that the Leafs considered elite prospects.  With Rielly, he's the blue chipper of Leafs' prospects.  And their relative draft positions, I think, matter in this comparison as well.  Maybe Stuart Percy would make a better example, though I understand why you would pick Rielly.

 

[Champ Kind]

Trades and free agent acquisitions mostly. His drafting record with the picks he did retain was quite good - I'll give him that...

Going through his transaction record, there are a couple smaller moves that we're only really seeing the dividends from now. The pick that became Leo Komarov was acquired for Nathan Perrott. The picks that became Reimer and Holzer were both acquired in the same deal, giving up a 2006 3rd round pick that Chicago used for a guy who is still in Europe. The pick that became Frattin came from trading Tellqvist.

His bigger moves were largely awful, but a lot of his smaller moves worked out nicely.

Makes sense, particularly since, if I'm not mistaken, he was regarded as a pretty good scout.

 

[Andy007]

Trades and free agent acquisitions mostly. His drafting record with the picks he did retain was quite good - I'll give him that...

Going through his transaction record, there are a couple smaller moves that we're only really seeing the dividends from now. The pick that became Leo Komarov was acquired for Nathan Perrott. The picks that became Reimer and Holzer were both acquired in the same deal, giving up a 2006 3rd round pick that Chicago used for a guy who is still in Europe. The pick that became Frattin came from trading Tellqvist.

His bigger moves were largely awful, but a lot of his smaller moves worked out nicely.

Makes sense, particularly since, if I'm not mistaken, he was regarded as a pretty good scout.

Yep he had a pretty good amount of success with the Blues prior to coming here.

 

[Bonsixx]

The pick that became Frattin came from trading Tellqvist.

I didn't know that. It's funny, I seem to recall a few people on here being very unhappy with that return at the time. Some were convinced Tellqvist was much, much more than he was.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Where's RaycroftRocks? I bet he could remember everyone that was against the Rask trade.

 

[Bullfrog]

I can recall I was definitely against that trade. However, it had nothing to do with Raycroft. In fact, I thought Raycroft could turn out to regain his form. My resentment of that deal was trading away one of the most highly regarded goalie prospects out there.

If I recall correctly, most experts had Rask ranked higher than Pogge even back then.