Unofficial 2013-2014 Armchair GM Thread

[GhostofPotvin29]

Things I never realized currently: Brayden Schenn career .45 PPG.  Gardiner career 0.35 PPG.  Difference of about 8 points over 82 games.  Never knew it was that close.

 

[Corn Flake]

Things I never realized currently: Brayden Schenn career .45 PPG.  Gardiner career 0.35 PPG.  Difference of about 8 points over 82 games.  Never knew it was that close.

If that trade happened, the Flyers *could* have the higher impact player in the long run, but I think B. Schenn is far less likely to be a "bust" than Gardiner.  Or in other words, Schenn more likely to reach his potential even if it's a bit lower of a bar. 

Just, IMO.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Things I never realized currently: Brayden Schenn career .45 PPG.  Gardiner career 0.35 PPG.  Difference of about 8 points over 82 games.  Never knew it was that close.

If that trade happened, the Flyers *could* have the higher impact player in the long run, but I think B. Schenn is far less likely to be a "bust" than Gardiner.  Or in other words, Schenn more likely to reach his potential even if it's a bit lower of a bar. 

Just, IMO.

Is it something the Leafs need?  I just think Kadri has outperformed Schenn thus far and, unless things change rather dramatically, looks to be able to produce at the same level at least.  Schenn is still on pace this year for around 50/51 points, which you could arguably already get from Bozak.

Personally, I'd take the chance with Gardiner.  I think his skill-set is so valued and you can't teach patience and skating like Gardiner has.  He had a very good rookie season, the offence is there somewhere - maybe this is Carlyle giving him some tough minutes/love in order to see even greater rewards on the other side.

I just personally would hate to give up on Gardiner.  I'll admit that you've probably seen Schenn more than I have, but from what I have seen it just seems like their ceilings are similar if not higher for Gardiner.  I think even with Rielly - puck-moving D are so important for fluid breakouts.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I think that if Nonis actually put Gardiner on the block, we'd get a much bigger piece for him than Brayden Schenn. As much as it's said that the Leafs are listening on Gardiner, I don't think Nonis is close to dealing him. I think Nonis would want to trade him only for a deal he couldn't refuse.

In saying that, Gardiner needs to play closer to what we saw in the playoffs last year, for not only himself, but for the team as well.

 

[Erndog]

I think that if Nonis actually put Gardiner on the block, we'd get a much bigger piece for him than Brayden Schenn.

???

Maybe if you package our 1st with him.  But if you're talking 1 for 1, than a guy like Brayden Schenn is about the equivalent of Jake's value.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Maybe if you package our 1st with him.  But if you're talking 1 for 1, than a guy like Brayden Schenn is about the equivalent of Jake's value.

Gardiner and a 1st? Wow, that's a big package right there. I agree with folks that see Schenn as a 2nd line center at most and he's closer to a 3rd liner right now IMO. Gardiner's ceiling is higher the way I see it.

I may have been hard on Gardiner lately, but I don't think people should construe that as me thinking he's heading towards bust territory. He is still going to be a very good defender and to me, worth more than Schenn.

 

[Erndog]

Maybe if you package our 1st with him.  But if you're talking 1 for 1, than a guy like Brayden Schenn is about the equivalent of Jake's value.

Gardiner and a 1st? Wow, that's a big package right there. I agree with folks that see Schenn as a 2nd line center at most and he's closer to a 3rd liner right now IMO. Gardiner's ceiling is higher the way I see it.

Gardiner's absolute ceiling is probably a #2 dman.  More realistically a #3 or so... and he's closer to a #4/5 right now.  So... yeah... pretty equivalent to Schenns ceiling and current status.  Though I think you're short changing Schenn *a little* right now.  He's probably performing at as a 2nd line type of player.

I may have been hard on Gardiner lately, but I don't think people should construe that as me thinking he's heading towards bust territory. He is still going to be a very good defender and to me, worth more than Schenn.

I love Gardiner.  He's probably my 2nd or 3rd fav Leaf behind Kessel and JVR.... but I dont see his value as being more than Schenn at this time.  I think that swap is about as equivalent a swap as you are going to get (like Luke for JVR 2 years ago.  Things have obviously changed since).

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I guess we can settle on them being close, certainly nowhere near the difference between Luke and JvR. I'd still give the edge to Gardiner, perhaps just for the fact that he's a defenceman and not available as often.

Maybe I should watch more of Brayden Schenn.

 

[Frank E]

It should be noted (probably again) that whilst they've been playing Gardiner over 20 minutes a game this year, he's only generated 5 points with no goals.

We might be a little mesmerised by his speed, as his point tracking over a full season has been decreasing every year...32 in '11-'12, 27 in '12-'13, and this year he's tracking a grand total of 17 points over a full season.  Granted, the entire d-corps hasn't scored much.

He's exciting to watch when he gets all wound up, but I've said this before, I think he's got all the physical skills but none of the brains.  Carlyle has been playing the hell out of him this year, but I haven't seen him have a game even close to those playoff performances. 

 

[Erndog]

I guess we can settle on them being close, certainly nowhere near the difference between Luke and JvR. I'd still give the edge to Gardiner, perhaps just for the fact that he's a defenceman and not available as often.

Maybe I should watch more of Brayden Schenn.

The difference between Luke and JVR NOW... but when that trade was made, it was pretty much a saw-off at that time.  Philly fans wanted more, Leaf fans wanted more, thankfully it ended up in our favour.

And like Frank E says, Jake Gardiner is avg over 20 min and has a grand total of 0 goals and 5 points.  Schenn has 7 goals and 8 assists.  We're not talking about world beaters either way, but Schenns performing at a decent level.  Gardiners performing at a poor level and even being benched.  I just can't stress it enough, at this point in time, I'd wager GM's view their values as pretty dead on- if not in favour of Schenn.

 

[Peter D.]

I kind of find it funny that we traded L. Schenn in a deal for a forward then would trade a d-man for B. Schenn.  And if a Gardiner for B. Schenn were to happen, I think the Leafs would come out on top both times (not as much so in the second deal).

I like Gardiner, but I don't know if I am as bullish on his ceiling as others.  I do think Rielly has a higher ceiling, and by no means does that mean that necessarily makes Gardiner expendable, but if we can use a position of strength to shore a position of weakness, I think it would make sense.

And I have absolutely no basis to go off this on besides a personal hunch, but B. Schenn seems like he could grow into a role that we had hoped Steen would develop into as a Leaf -- a solid two-way 2nd line centre who would be counted on in all situations and could put up to 55-60 points.

 

[bustaheims]

You guys do know that Schenn's not playing down the middle anymore? He's a LW, and that's probably the better fit for him. He'd be behind JvR and Lupul on the Leafs' depth chart.

 

[Frank E]

You guys do know that Schenn's not playing down the middle anymore? He's a LW, and that's probably the better fit for him. He'd be behind JvR and Lupul on the Leafs' depth chart.

Just so I'm clear, I'm not really advocating the Schenn deal...I'm just saying that Gardiner seems to be a lot more flash than substance, and it looks to me like he's regressing as he gets more ice.

Perhaps more patience is in order, but I'm not seeing much progress at all.

 

[Corn Flake]

You guys do know that Schenn's not playing down the middle anymore? He's a LW, and that's probably the better fit for him. He'd be behind JvR and Lupul on the Leafs' depth chart.

That's why I want him.  He can fill-in at centre when the injuries are an issue.  Basically, he would Bolland's understudy.  He can play all 3 positions. 

 

[Corn Flake]

It should be noted (probably again) that whilst they've been playing Gardiner over 20 minutes a game this year, he's only generated 5 points with no goals.

We might be a little mesmerised by his speed, as his point tracking over a full season has been decreasing every year...32 in '11-'12, 27 in '12-'13, and this year he's tracking a grand total of 17 points over a full season.  Granted, the entire d-corps hasn't scored much.

He's exciting to watch when he gets all wound up, but I've said this before, I think he's got all the physical skills but none of the brains.  Carlyle has been playing the hell out of him this year, but I haven't seen him have a game even close to those playoff performances.

This x 10.

I'll take my chances now after seeing enough this year that moving him is not as much of a worry about coming back to bite us as we may think, and that Rielly is going to be the better all-round d-man.

This defense needs stability right now. Badly.  I would rather sacrifice raw talent and offense in favor of guys who can play the position without losing their minds when things get tough.  Not to say Gardiner is the only one but he's not part of the solution right now. If moving him gets the right parts without making a stupid trade, I do it.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I guess we can settle on them being close, certainly nowhere near the difference between Luke and JvR. I'd still give the edge to Gardiner, perhaps just for the fact that he's a defenceman and not available as often.

Maybe I should watch more of Brayden Schenn.

The difference between Luke and JVR NOW... but when that trade was made, it was pretty much a saw-off at that time.  Philly fans wanted more, Leaf fans wanted more, thankfully it ended up in our favour.

And like Frank E says, Jake Gardiner is avg over 20 min and has a grand total of 0 goals and 5 points.  Schenn has 7 goals and 8 assists.  We're not talking about world beaters either way, but Schenns performing at a decent level.  Gardiners performing at a poor level and even being benched.  I just can't stress it enough, at this point in time, I'd wager GM's view their values as pretty dead on- if not in favour of Schenn.

If Gardiner is performing at a poor level, why is he averaging the most even-strength time on ice per game for the Leafs?  More than Phaneuf.

Either someone here has to admit Carlyle is playing a bad player this much, or that Gardiner isn't as bad as is being said about him.

Which is why his benching seems idiotic to me.  You're playing this player the most ES minutes on the team one game and suddenly he's benched the next?  Mixed signals.

 

[bustaheims]

That's why I want him.  He can fill-in at centre when the injuries are an issue.  Basically, he would Bolland's understudy.  He can play all 3 positions.

Enh. I can't support moving Gardiner for a guy who would play on the 3rd line when everyone is healthy - especially when the team has more pressing needs.

 

[Frank E]

I guess we can settle on them being close, certainly nowhere near the difference between Luke and JvR. I'd still give the edge to Gardiner, perhaps just for the fact that he's a defenceman and not available as often.

Maybe I should watch more of Brayden Schenn.

The difference between Luke and JVR NOW... but when that trade was made, it was pretty much a saw-off at that time.  Philly fans wanted more, Leaf fans wanted more, thankfully it ended up in our favour.

And like Frank E says, Jake Gardiner is avg over 20 min and has a grand total of 0 goals and 5 points.  Schenn has 7 goals and 8 assists.  We're not talking about world beaters either way, but Schenns performing at a decent level.  Gardiners performing at a poor level and even being benched.  I just can't stress it enough, at this point in time, I'd wager GM's view their values as pretty dead on- if not in favour of Schenn.

If Gardiner is performing at a poor level, why is he averaging the most even-strength time on ice per game for the Leafs?  More than Phaneuf.

Either someone here has to admit Carlyle is playing a bad player this much, or that Gardiner isn't as bad as is being said about him.

Which is why his benching seems idiotic to me.  You're playing this player the most ES minutes on the team one game and suddenly he's benched the next?  Mixed signals.

As much as he's been maligned lately, I think Carlyle is really trying to develop the kid.

You watch the games as much as I do...you have to admit that he's not earning that ice-time based on his play and production.  No?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I guess we can settle on them being close, certainly nowhere near the difference between Luke and JvR. I'd still give the edge to Gardiner, perhaps just for the fact that he's a defenceman and not available as often.

Maybe I should watch more of Brayden Schenn.

The difference between Luke and JVR NOW... but when that trade was made, it was pretty much a saw-off at that time.  Philly fans wanted more, Leaf fans wanted more, thankfully it ended up in our favour.

And like Frank E says, Jake Gardiner is avg over 20 min and has a grand total of 0 goals and 5 points.  Schenn has 7 goals and 8 assists.  We're not talking about world beaters either way, but Schenns performing at a decent level.  Gardiners performing at a poor level and even being benched.  I just can't stress it enough, at this point in time, I'd wager GM's view their values as pretty dead on- if not in favour of Schenn.

If Gardiner is performing at a poor level, why is he averaging the most even-strength time on ice per game for the Leafs?  More than Phaneuf.

Either someone here has to admit Carlyle is playing a bad player this much, or that Gardiner isn't as bad as is being said about him.

Which is why his benching seems idiotic to me.  You're playing this player the most ES minutes on the team one game and suddenly he's benched the next?  Mixed signals.

As much as he's been maligned lately, I think Carlyle is really trying to develop the kid.

You watch the games as much as I do...you have to admit that he's not earning that ice-time based on his play and production.  No?

His production isn't where I'd like it, but really none of the team's is and none of the D's are.

When I watch him I think he controls the play and settles the play down better than anyone on the team, at least better than anyone on the D.  I honestly don't know where it came from that he deserved to be benched after the Columbus game, I don't think he was any worse than the rest of the team.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

That's why I want him.  He can fill-in at centre when the injuries are an issue.  Basically, he would Bolland's understudy.  He can play all 3 positions.

Enh. I can't support moving Gardiner for a guy who would play on the 3rd line when everyone is healthy - especially when the team has more pressing needs.

This is where I was at with Schenn. Every time I hear Gardiner's name in the media, a different team wants to get there hands on him. This tells me that he's highly regarded and that his value is at the high end right now. The benching isn't helping things, but I don't think we'd be selling low here.