WHOA - Mike Babcock OUT | Sheldon Keefe IN
- Thread starter herman
- Start date
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
You haven't heard anyone talking about Matthews not being fond of Babcock? Or Spezza gate from home opener? Or Mitch first year? Or Willie bring only guy held accountable? It has been a weekly conversation. But I thought you meant ever. I will say Filpula again as it was widely reported.
Guilt Trip
Active member
There are all kinds of talk about a dislike for Babs. Chelios, Zetterberg, Datsyuk have all been reported to be on the negative side.Bates said:
Some thoughts:
- negative words from a few disgruntled players doesn't mean much. There's bound to be a few players on every team that feel mistreated or not given the opportunity they deserved in a very competitive environment.
-two of the most hated coaches in the history of the game were Imlach and Bowman
- I heard about Babcock's success and how great a coach he was, but I never saw it on the ice while he was here in Toronto. To me, an important sign of a coaches ability is the ability of his teams to minimize opponents scoring chances and keep the puck out of the net
- why was all this hate not considered when he was signed?
- from prince to pauper - that's what coaching or Managing in Toronto can do to you ......Carlyle, Wilson, Maurice, Burke, were supposed to save the organization, all left leaving it worse off. Fortunately, years of failure provided Leafs with a strong core of elite players via the draft and one Tavares via FA. This team won't go down like those in previous eras.
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- negative words from a few disgruntled players doesn't mean much. There's bound to be a few players on every team that feel mistreated or not given the opportunity they deserved in a very competitive environment.
-two of the most hated coaches in the history of the game were Imlach and Bowman
- I heard about Babcock's success and how great a coach he was, but I never saw it on the ice while he was here in Toronto. To me, an important sign of a coaches ability is the ability of his teams to minimize opponents scoring chances and keep the puck out of the net
- why was all this hate not considered when he was signed?
- from prince to pauper - that's what coaching or Managing in Toronto can do to you ......Carlyle, Wilson, Maurice, Burke, were supposed to save the organization, all left leaving it worse off. Fortunately, years of failure provided Leafs with a strong core of elite players via the draft and one Tavares via FA. This team won't go down like those in previous eras.
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Guilt Trip
Active member
Two old school coaches back in the day isn't a great example because you can't treat players the way they used to. While not everyone is going to like the coach, you also don't have to be disliked to have success. Anyway, using your example of disliked coaches here's something I found.Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
I find it's also rather telling to our situation here.
On Babs...
?He gave me a lot. Asked me to concentrate on defence,? said Datsyuk, whose interview was translated into English by The Malik Report. ?Made me more of a defensive forward. Especially closer to the end of my career.
?But in general every coach added something. Bowman, on the other hand, allowed me to play my game and improvise. Even though I was so young.?
Zetterberg was quoted as saying Babs was "difficult".
Word has it, that 90% of the Leafs are glad he's gone.
Bottomline for me is even though we heard the stories when Babs was hired, he was absolutely the right coach for the job at the time. He did a tremendous job tanking and building them a safer environment. He was fired because he refused to use the players in the roles they were brought in for. Not all of them but some. There have been many issues with this over his tenure. His use of the 4th line after a goal scored for or against. The backup situation. The ice time for Matthews. The short shifting of the PP. The fact that Babs said that Barrie needs to "re-invent" himself is another prime example. How about undermining his boss Dubas. Dubas gets him a Stanley Cup winning D man in Muzz and the first thing out of his mouth is he shoots left. There are many examples of his defiance and stubbornness and I for one am glad to see him go. I was glad when they hired him and thought he did a great job until last year and in the playoffs. Maybe in 4 years Keefe will be in the same spot but for now, he's the right guy for the job.
I agree that Babcock was the right coach at the time he was hired, for a variety of reasons. If for no other, his signing brought legitimacy, indicated that ownership was serious about doing what was needed to build a contender. And he did well for a couple of years - handled the tank year well and also the first couple of years (first in particular) when the Leafs had all the rookies in the lineup. But the clock ran out and it was obvious that the team wasn't responding anymore. I don't know if they players intentionally "tanked" this year to get rid of him (hope not) or if they were just tired of his act but the result is the same.
Guilt Trip
Active member
Players don't "tank", it's not in them. I think they tried to play Babs' system but they def grew tired of his message.Chris said:
Chris said:
I don't think the players wanted to lose. I think that when they were pushed in to roles that they weren't comfortable with they weren't able to perform at the level they were used to. Then they started to make mistakes. Then the confidence goes, and the losing continues. It's a bad downward cycle.
I think Babcock was trying to get them to play a style that he thought would win in the playoffs. I think his belief was that through repetition they would get it and get better, so he was willing to sacrifice the wins at the start of the year for a more complete team at the end of it.
We'll see if the system that Dubas and Keefe want to play will work when there is a 7 game series and teams have more of an opportunity to exploit weaknesses. Also the players will need to have something left in the tank. Kind of reminds me of the style the Phoenix Suns wanted to play in the NBA when they had Nash and D'Antoni was their coach. Although, when the Bruins went to Cassidy from Julien, a lot of people didn't think they would be as successful, and they were, so maybe this will work here. I'm not saying it won't work, because Keefe was successful in the AHL playoffs, and it seems like he will adjust when he sees something isn't working, but there is only so much you can adjust when you have locked yourself in to a certain type of player.
Highlander
Active member
Agreed, I think everything happens for a reason, Babcock came at the perfect time and left at the perfect time. By being fired when he was it left no doubt that he was not the man to lead the team forward. If he had been replaced by Keefe in the summer and Keefe had a rough spot in season, then many would have said "why did we get rid of Bab's?" That won't happen now.Chris said:
What a bunch of sorry faces the Leafs had on their visages for both the Pittsburg and Vegas games. What a change to the last two games.
Significantly Insignificant said:
I don't think they wanted to lose either, but they probably wanted Babcock gone so they stopped listening to him (or just didn't give maximum effort because they didn't like the style of play, or weren't getting results, etc). Then it spiraled. But I'm sure there were discussions among players about what was going on and what the end result would be. It could be a fine line, where they didn't consciously "tank" or lose but they chose not to give maximum effort. Same result in either case.
Significantly Insignificant said:
Yep. The interesting thing is the team played some really good hockey (aside from special teams) in that Boston series, even with Kadri out. I thought that perhaps they had taken a big step forward and could build on that and was really quite shocked about how things went this year. I imagine the injuries and number of new players probably did play a role in how things went, and perhaps things would look very different had the team been healthy to start. We'll never know of course.
Highlander
Active member
Everyone goes to a different level in the playoffs, big money and dreams of the cup. No need for outside motivation.Chris said:
OldTimeHockey
Active member
The last two periods of last night's game looked an awful lot like Babcock hockey. I wouldn't be so quick to say the players have suddenly started buying in again. Different boss but its the same employees. I'm betting they regress after the initial "we got a new boss" effect wears off.
And I'll eat my hat if they don't.
And I'll eat my hat if they don't.
