Your summer 2012 strategy?

[rdowdall]

But there's also sort of a common sense aspect to it. I don't know if you can look at Pavel Datsyuk, for instance, and say that the Red Wings were especially patient with him. The reality of it was that the Wings could legitimately say to him that if he wanted to be one of their top 2 centres that he'd have to be better than either Steve Yzerman or Sergei Fedorov. That's not an issue of patience, that's just having an appropriately ordered depth chart. If you can tell a young scorer that they have to earn a spot over Zetterberg or Tomas Holmstrom or a young checker that he'll have to beat out Maltby or Draper then you're not only setting a high bar but that player can look at a Red Wings game and see that he's being treated fairly.

That's not the case in Toronto. If Kadri or Frattin want to earn their way into the line-up they just need to be of more worth than Tim Connolly or Colby Armstrong.

True, they had the luxury of just allowing him to develop and see what happens.  They didn't have to force him in to a role that he might not have been ready for.  Also there is the leadership quotient as well, where he got to see how players of Yzerman's ilk conduct themselves.  That is one of the reasons I would have like to have seen the Leafs keep Sundin, whether he was going to be effective or not.  The team at the time wasn't really going anywhere anyways, so they might as well have let Sundin bring along some of the kids.  Of course, you could ask the question "What kids?"

 

[cw]

For starters, I'm not sure I'd look at their roster and chalk up a ton of their success to the young players on the team they've developed.

I don't entirely agree. When you've got 16 drafted players on your roster and they include the starting goalie, the stud dman and the top two forwards plus several other good ones, I'd have to conclude their drafting and development has been key to their success.

That's fine but it's not really a contradiction of what I said there. I didn't say that their drafting/development isn't a key to their success, I said that their success has a lot more to do with their guys in the over-30 crowd then their younger guys.

I think the idea put forth that the Detroit model is self-perpetuating is a good one but it starts with great players at the top.

I agree with Nik.  It took a while before Detriot was able to put in to place the "Detriot model".  It's not like they just drafted a bunch of guys and waited.  They were bad for a number of years, and finally got a franchise player to build around.  After they built around him, the were smart on who they drafted and how long they waited before they brought them in.  Having said that though, I can't imaging what this team would have looked like if Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg had not been drafted.  It begs the question if it was scouting, or drafting/development that molded those players in to the ones that are on the ice today.  If they had been drafted by any other team, would they still have succeeded?

I don't buy the "it took a while" as an excuse for the Leafs. It does take a while but it takes even longer if you never start.

All you have to do is stock the roster with UFAs while the kids go through a proper development. Would the kids brought up sooner be better than some of the UFAs? Maybe but who cares ? Because you're very unlikely to win a Cup anyway until the young core is properly developed and the prospect system is fully stocked.

And again, there are good cap implications with that approach to get better price performance.

Fletcher could have started that on day one of JFJ's departure. And Burke could have trended more that way as well. The only excuse seems to be that everybody is in a rush to take short cuts as they have been the last 45 years. Hopefully, someone catches on in our lifetime.

It doesn't make it impossible to win a Cup when one doesn't do it but it does make it considerably tougher.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

Trade Phaneuf - when asked by a reporter if he felt he wasn't providing enough leadership to the team, Dion's response was something to the effect that it is a team sport and teams win or lose as a team.  There was no accountability on his part, and as leader, accountability must be there.  Leaders must be willing to take responsibility when things do not work out for the better, while sharing the credit with the team when things do go well.  Leaders have to be willing to take criticism when it is warranted, as that is one of the roles of leaders - they are put in that position for a reason, and must realize that they will be put in the spotlight and therefore will be a focus of criticism/praise from the media and public.  He's all huff and puff, but when it comes down to it, that's all there really is.

 

[Strangelove]

Dion comes across as both stupid and apathetic in pretty well every interview I've seen.  He has about 3 things he likes to say before staring at the camera dumbly.  He is truly an awful captain.

 

[rdowdall]

For starters, I'm not sure I'd look at their roster and chalk up a ton of their success to the young players on the team they've developed.

I don't entirely agree. When you've got 16 drafted players on your roster and they include the starting goalie, the stud dman and the top two forwards plus several other good ones, I'd have to conclude their drafting and development has been key to their success.

That's fine but it's not really a contradiction of what I said there. I didn't say that their drafting/development isn't a key to their success, I said that their success has a lot more to do with their guys in the over-30 crowd then their younger guys.

I think the idea put forth that the Detroit model is self-perpetuating is a good one but it starts with great players at the top.

I agree with Nik.  It took a while before Detriot was able to put in to place the "Detriot model".  It's not like they just drafted a bunch of guys and waited.  They were bad for a number of years, and finally got a franchise player to build around.  After they built around him, the were smart on who they drafted and how long they waited before they brought them in.  Having said that though, I can't imaging what this team would have looked like if Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg had not been drafted.  It begs the question if it was scouting, or drafting/development that molded those players in to the ones that are on the ice today.  If they had been drafted by any other team, would they still have succeeded?

I don't buy the "it took a while" as an excuse for the Leafs. It does take a while but it takes even longer if you never start.

All you have to do is stock the roster with UFAs while the kids go through a proper development. Would the kids brought up sooner be better than some of the UFAs? Maybe but who cares ? Because you're very unlikely to win a Cup anyway until the young core is properly developed and the prospect system is fully stocked.

And again, there are good cap implications with that approach to get better price performance.

Fletcher could have started that on day one of JFJ's departure. And Burke could have trended more that way as well. The only excuse seems to be that everybody is in a rush to take short cuts as they have been the last 45 years. Hopefully, someone catches on in our lifetime.

It doesn't make it impossible to win a Cup when one doesn't do it but it does make it considerably tougher.

I think we are all arguing the same thing.  We all would like the Detroit model, but we wanted it to have been started 5 years ago.  Hey maybe even 7 years ago.  Doesn't mean that they can't start it now, and maybe if they draft an elite player this year, they will have someone they can actually build around.  They still need that elite player to start with though.

 

[Kin]

I don't buy the "it took a while" as an excuse for the Leafs. It does take a while but it takes even longer if you never start.

Nobody is looking to create excuses for the Leafs. I'm as critical as you are of the Leafs failure to look long term. The issue SI and I are talking about is the ability of a team to implement the Detroit model, which is quite different than a Pittsburgh/Chicago kind of rebuild, without first having exceptional talent within the system.

All you have to do is stock the roster with UFAs while the kids go through a proper development. Would the kids brought up sooner be better than some of the UFAs? Maybe but who cares ? Because you're very unlikely to win a Cup anyway until the young core is properly developed and the prospect system is fully stocked.

I think that the players themselves care. I think that if you send a guy to the AHL when he'd be better than a guy you're keeping up it'll be discouraging to both him and to the guys on the NHL roster.

Again, this isn't about not drafting/developing. The Leafs need to do that. They need to do that and accumulate a ton of elite level prospects at the very top of their game, the kinds of guys who can play in the NHL as 19-20 year olds. That's not the Detroit model or, at least, hasn't been for 20 years.

 

[maplesyrup]

Glass half full for a moment (I'm probably reaching.) Perhaps this very weak UFA class actually works in our favour. - I take a look at this roster and I see a whack of guys with not a lot of term left. Maybe it's possible other teams would rather take a guy with a shorter term off our hands than overpay both in cap hit and term in free agency.

* runs away dodging tomatoes *   

 

[Kin]

Glass half full for a moment (I'm probably reaching.) Perhaps this very weak UFA class actually works in our favour. - I take a look at this roster and I see a whack of guys with not a lot of term left. Maybe it's possible other teams would rather take a guy with a shorter term off our hands than overpay both in cap hit and term in free agency.

I don't know to what extent that'll be true but if it is it'll only be true with guys that will have legitimate value to other teams and have done a competent job this year. So, yeah, I'm sure there'll be teams out there willing to take Lupul or MacArthur off the Leafs hands but I'm not sure that's saying much.

 

[Deebo]

There was talk that Armstrong was garnering some interest at the deadline but If I were another team, I wouldn't want him.

 

[bustaheims]

There was talk that Armstrong was garnering some interest at the deadline but If I were another team, I wouldn't want him.

I get why some might have that sentiment, but, if I were a GM looking for that type of player and I could pluck Armstrong without much asset cost and only be committed to him for one season, that's a gamble I'd probably be willing to take. Same thing with Connolly. I don't think either will bring back anything all that interesting in a trade, but, I can certainly see why there might be some interest in them this summer.

 

[pnjunction]

There was talk that Armstrong was garnering some interest at the deadline but If I were another team, I wouldn't want him.

I get why some might have that sentiment, but, if I were a GM looking for that type of player and I could pluck Armstrong without much asset cost and only be committed to him for one season, that's a gamble I'd probably be willing to take. Same thing with Connolly. I don't think either will bring back anything all that interesting in a trade, but, I can certainly see why there might be some interest in them this summer.

Yeah I was thinking the gambles on those players would be less than the ones that Burke took at just one year.  Also many players are known to get better once they leave this place...

How might Connolly look on a 2nd line with some size and skill?  And playing in a system that is working? That wasn't (and couldn't be) tested here...

Or if the return is little (or even negative) we just let these guys play it out here.  Someone was talking about playing UFAs until more kids develop properly, even if they underperform.  I could agree and we sure don't need to look far for underperforming veterans, Burke has amassed quite a collection.

 

[cw]

There was talk that Armstrong was garnering some interest at the deadline but If I were another team, I wouldn't want him.

Armstrong has always been a heart and soul guy. Look at his ice time:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8469474&season=20112012&view=log

He forgot how to play the game at 29? I doubt it. He's still concussed or something is physically wrong. Burke  did the same thing with Colton Orr. These guys are not 100%. Why are they in a jersey or taking a roster spot? It's not like the Leafs can't afford the IR.

 

[Deebo]

There was talk that Armstrong was garnering some interest at the deadline but If I were another team, I wouldn't want him.

Armstrong has always been a heart and soul guy. Look at his ice time:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8469474&season=20112012&view=log

He forgot how to play the game at 29? I doubt it. He's still concussed or something is physically wrong. Burke  did the same thing with Colton Orr. These guys are not 100%. Why are they in a jersey or taking a roster spot? It's not like the Leafs can't afford the IR.

Maybe they are tanking purposely?

I know that's not the case, but alot has gone "right" to see us plummet the way we have.

 

[Peter D.]

I'd be keeping an eye on how San Jose ends off the season. They are teetering on the brink of missing the playoffs and if they do, you would think their management would want to alter the core that hasn't been able to put it all together.

Does that mean Thornton, Clowe...who knows. But there may be something among two teams who'd be looking to overhaul.

 

[Kin]

I don't doubt that you might be able to find a team that would take Armstrong or even Connolly. The issue I had is the idea that it would really play out in the Leafs favour. None of those guys are going to be hot commodities.

 

[Peter D.]

Strictly a gut feeling, but I see Burke trading one of Kessel or Phaneuf this summer (I'm leaning towards the latter). 

 

[Optimus Reimer]

If I'm a UFA or draft eligible, do I really want to sign with the Leafs or be drafted by them - especially when the team is heading nowhere?  I cannot see Burke being able to do anything to correct this mess.

 

[rdowdall]

Kessel for Schneider.
Try and get Yakupov.
Try and get another first rounder somewhere.

 

[wnc096]

Strictly a gut feeling, but I see Burke trading one of Kessel or Phaneuf this summer (I'm leaning towards the latter).

I tend to agree...i have a feeling Phaneuf may be gone

 

[Corn Flake]

I don't know how Burke can look at this team that he "still believed in" at the deadline and not feel completely betrayed by their performance since then.  Games like last night are very quickly changing my thoughts on how deep the changes to the veteran leadership needs to go. 

This team looks like it's completely shutting down and the lack of interest in competing is disturbing.  It points to the leaders who are setting a terrible example.  I'm sure Burke didn't think so a month ago but he has to now be considering a blow-up of the core.  You can't go to war next year with guys who checked out with 10 games to go.  I'm sure they want this year to just end, but giving up before it's over is a very telling sign of weakness that can't be part of the formula going forward.