2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

[bustaheims]

I think locking out your employees from their workplace goes against "bargaining in good faith".

A lockout that arises from a labour dispute (like this one) without a valid CBA in place is 100% still bargaining in good faith.

 

[bustaheims]

So what if the NHL had agreed to start the season without a deal and 'negotiate as they go'?  Now, assuming the playoffs are in the not too distant future and no deal is in place, don't the players hold all the cards via potential strike/walking off the job?  If I'm the NHL, I don't want to end up in that situation.

Which is exactly why the NHL, NBA and NFL all went the way of the lockout in their labour disputes. It protects them from a situation where the players could strike right before the playoffs (after they've earned the entirety of their guaranteed salary) and takes a high leverage option away from them. And, for what it's worth, both Fehr and the NHLPA have used that strategy in the past.

 

[ZBBM]

So, all you informed people, my simple question is this: Does this get settled in time for a 48-gamer, or not?  Yea or nay?  What thinkest thous?

 

[bustaheims]

So, all you informed people, my simple question is this: Does this get settled in time for a 48-gamer, or not?  Yea or nay?  What thinkest thous?

Hard to say. I'm a little less optimistic than I was 2 days ago. It's a coin flip right now. That being said, considering how close they reportedly are, if they can't get a deal done now, both sides need to seriously rethink their strategies, their positions and their leadership.

 

[ZBBM]

So, all you informed people, my simple question is this: Does this get settled in time for a 48-gamer, or not?  Yea or nay?  What thinkest thous?

Hard to say. I'm a little less optimistic than I was 2 days ago. It's a coin flip right now. That being said, considering how close they reportedly are, if they can't get a deal done now, both sides need to seriously rethink their strategies, their positions and their leadership.

I'm with you on that.  They need to remember those old words of wisdom: "Don't let the mediocre be the enemy of the halfway decent."

 

[Kin]

So what if the NHL had agreed to start the season without a deal and 'negotiate as they go'?  Now, assuming the playoffs are in the not too distant future and no deal is in place, don't the players hold all the cards via potential strike/walking off the job?  If I'm the NHL, I don't want to end up in that situation.

The NHL could still protect themselves against that scenario while letting the season start. You probably wouldn't let, say, January end without a resolution but considering the sort of damage this thing can do to a league the option of cancelling games should be a last resort, not the first resort strategy of exerting leverage on players that the NHL, NBA and NFL used it as. Especially not when a league is profitable.

 

[Kin]

And, for what it's worth, both Fehr and the NHLPA have used that strategy in the past.

When did a Donald Fehr led union strike right before the playoffs?

 

[Kin]

So, all you informed people, my simple question is this: Does this get settled in time for a 48-gamer, or not?  Yea or nay?  What thinkest thous?

I don't know. I think they're too close and the players too eager to play to let the season slip away. That said, I don't think the disclaimer of interest is purely a negotiating ploy. There's a part of me that thinks that Fehr, who I think has long been a little stung by the way Marvin Miller hammered him for all of the "givebacks" Miller thought Fehr gave MLB, wants to be behind a major anti-trust lawsuit against one of the leagues.

Problem is that while I think the PA would absolutely win an anti-trust lawsuit, they probably couldn't get an injunction against the lawsuit and I don't think the players want to be guinea pigs even if they'd come out ahead financially. Because of that I have to come back to a deal getting done.

 

[Joe S.]

And, for what it's worth, both Fehr and the NHLPA have used that strategy in the past.

When did a Donald Fehr led union strike right before the playoffs?

Really? The op didn't say 'right before the playoffs' they said 'playoffs are in the not to distant future'.

 

[Kin]

Really? The op didn't say 'right before the playoffs' they said 'playoffs are in the not to distant future'.

I didn't quote him. I quoted Busta who said:

Which is exactly why the NHL, NBA and NFL all went the way of the lockout in their labour disputes. It protects them from a situation where the players could strike right before the playoffs (after they've earned the entirety of their guaranteed salary) and takes a high leverage option away from them. And, for what it's worth, both Fehr and the NHLPA have used that strategy in the past.

I think that puts me on pretty solid ground.

 

[Kin]

Also, while, we're at it, isn't the whole "players don't get paid during the playoffs" angle kind of meaningless these days? Revenues generated in the playoffs still count as HRR and players still get 57 or 50 or whatever percentage of it ultimately.

 

[Bates]

What percentage of players are currently under contract to NHL team?  If disclaimer and anti-trust continues would it not be only those under contract that could sue teams? 

 

[Kin]

What percentage of players are currently under contract to NHL team?  If disclaimer and anti-trust continues would it not be only those under contract that could sue teams?

I don't think so. In fact, I think someone without a contract like, say, PK Subban might have a better case for an anti-trust lawsuit then someone with one/

 

[Bates]

I thought the premise of the anti-trust would be that the lock-out was illegal?  If that is the case how can someone who doesn't even work for the company sue?

 

[Kin]

I thought the premise of the anti-trust would be that the lock-out was illegal?  If that is the case how can someone who doesn't even work for the company sue?

Well, a) there are all manners of lawsuits the PA could pursue b) the NHL is not a "company" but rather, I'd assume, the mechanism the PA will use to establish that the owners are guilty of anti-trust violations. A guy like Subban whose "rights" are held by one of those teams probably has a pretty decent case there too.

 

[Bates]

That kinda makes sense but is also very murky.  So would we also assume every player in the world who has been drafted and still has their rights held by an NHL team could also sue in the same way Subban could?  This court case could be years in the making and I am not sure players should walk away from where offer now is and take that chance. 

 

[Kin]

That kinda makes sense but is also very murky.  So would we also assume every player in the world who has been drafted and still has their rights held by an NHL team could also sue in the same way Subban could?

Possibly, sure. But a guy like Subban, who I think it's fair to say absolutely would be in the NHL this year if games were being played, has a stronger case then, say, a 7th rounder from two years ago who's in Sweden or whatever.

 

[Redleaf]

So, all you informed people, my simple question is this: Does this get settled in time for a 48-gamer, or not?  Yea or nay?  What thinkest thous?

Yes. Negotiating tactics can be deceiving, but both sides want it to happen, and it will.

 

[bustaheims]

And, for what it's worth, both Fehr and the NHLPA have used that strategy in the past.

When did a Donald Fehr led union strike right before the playoffs?

You're right, I probably should have said "similar tactics," but, nevertheless, my point still stands.

 

[bustaheims]

Well, a) there are all manners of lawsuits the PA could pursue b) the NHL is not a "company" but rather, I'd assume, the mechanism the PA will use to establish that the owners are guilty of anti-trust violations. A guy like Subban whose "rights" are held by one of those teams probably has a pretty decent case there too.

The problem there is, once the disclaimer of interest goes through, no team would own the rights to any players anymore. Technically, absent a valid CBA, they don't own them right now.