2012 NHL Entry Draft

[Peter D.]

I'm a little disappointed that Burke hasn't drafted a few more goalies in his tenure.

 

[Etiam Vultus]

I'm a little disappointed that Burke hasn't drafted a few more goalies in his tenure.

He has signed four goalies as free agents.  Gus did not work out, but was worth the risk, and Rynnas does not appear to have developed.  But Scrivens is loooking promising and so is Owuya.

The trouble with drafting goalies is that there is a relatively low corrrelation between how high they are drafted and how successful they are.  Plus, you have to find spots for all of them to play. 

 

[rdowdall]

No, I got that. What I'm saying is, Rielly could end up being the best player in the draft, or good enough to be picked at 5, or a complete bust. Without him playing a game, we'll never know if Burke's words had merit or if he is just as delusional as you think he is. Your anger towards Burke shows a complete lack of faith in Rielly. It's like you're saying he couldn't possibly be that good because Burke picked him.

My anger towards Burke is because I feel he hasn't delivered.  I don't want him to blow sunshine up my nether regions any more.  I don't want him to make statements to justify his actions, which is where I come off on the comment on Rielly, I want him to deliver results that justify his actions.  His methods have not produced the team that he promised us.  Everyone gets a grace period.  4 years is a long grace period.  He needs to assemble a team that makes the playoffs.

 

[princedpw]

No, I got that. What I'm saying is, Rielly could end up being the best player in the draft, or good enough to be picked at 5, or a complete bust. Without him playing a game, we'll never know if Burke's words had merit or if he is just as delusional as you think he is. Your anger towards Burke shows a complete lack of faith in Rielly. It's like you're saying he couldn't possibly be that good because Burke picked him.

My anger towards Burke is because I feel he hasn't delivered.  I don't want him to blow sunshine up my nether regions any more.  I don't want him to make statements to justify his actions, which is where I come off on the comment on Rielly, I want him to deliver results that justify his actions.  His methods have not produced the team that he promised us.  Everyone gets a grace period.  4 years is a long grace period.  He needs to assemble a team that makes the playoffs.

If you really want a statement to get mad about and attack, forget what he said about Rielly, take this quote from the star on JVR:

"We?ve got a number of players on our team who?ve had concussions. That doesn?t mean you?re particularly susceptible to additional concussions."

That's just medically false.

 

[PG]

Add me to the few that think Burke talks too much. Not sure how he continually says this stuff with a straight face. Must be the lawyer in him.

 

[Deebo]

No, I got that. What I'm saying is, Rielly could end up being the best player in the draft, or good enough to be picked at 5, or a complete bust. Without him playing a game, we'll never know if Burke's words had merit or if he is just as delusional as you think he is. Your anger towards Burke shows a complete lack of faith in Rielly. It's like you're saying he couldn't possibly be that good because Burke picked him.

My anger towards Burke is because I feel he hasn't delivered.  I don't want him to blow sunshine up my nether regions any more.  I don't want him to make statements to justify his actions, which is where I come off on the comment on Rielly, I want him to deliver results that justify his actions.  His methods have not produced the team that he promised us.  Everyone gets a grace period.  4 years is a long grace period.  He needs to assemble a team that makes the playoffs.

If you really want a statement to get mad about and attack, forget what he said about Rielly, take this quote from the star on JVR:

"We’ve got a number of players on our team who’ve had concussions. That doesn’t mean you’re particularly susceptible to additional concussions."

That's just medically false.

When crosby and his doctors gave that news conference prior to the season, the doctors said that exact same thing. That when you are healed, you aren't more prone to concussions and that coming back to early is what is the main cause of a recurrence of a concussion.

 

[maplesyrup]

2.  P-o'd about the selection because we needed skilled forwards way more than another guy who is too similar in skills to Gardiner.  I would have rolled the dice on Grigorenko, but would have been happy with Forsberg.  Couldn't care less that they fell a little -- WE need that kind of player.

This is where I struggle with the negativity. Yes. We need this kind of player but just when exactly will Forsberg be ready to step in and be a top six NHL player. One year? Two years? If the player we need NOW isn't available in the draft then you have to try to get him somewhere else and just draft the BPA I think. - It's a long summer... Let's see what happens.

Sure, and of course I wish Burke every success in trading for what we need.  But he could have (potentially) gotten what we need for nothing.  We didn't need another puck mover, and I (and many others) would dispute that Rielly was the BPA when Grigorenko and Forsberg were still on the board.  He would have to be the BPA of those 3 by a country mile to justify what Burke did, and his absurd statement about have Rielly ranked #1 is just an ex post facto justification.

Again though, why don't we NEED another puck mover? We're not married to these players. They're moveable.

So we'll trade for the forwards we could've picked ourselves? What's the point of having it be out of our control?

Down the line if Rielly is great but not what we need and Grigorenko or Forsberg are great and exactly what those teams need then what are we to do?

Ask real nice? Drastically overpay?

Teams don't just trade because you want to. Look at what Columbus are asking for Nash. We'll be at the mercy of other teams (who we're competing against) to make the deal we need to be successful. Not a situation that's conducive to getting the maximum benefit for the team.

It works both ways... Other teams should want the best talent they can get too. High end D is never, ever any the less at a premium. 

When was the last time a young D-man was dealt for 2 1st's and a 2nd?

Talented forwards are generally moved for a fair bit more.

Young high end D-men get dealt for equivalent forwards all the time. The Goligoski/Neal trade is the last one I remember off hand.

See? That didn't take long at all, did it. 

 

[princedpw]

No, I got that. What I'm saying is, Rielly could end up being the best player in the draft, or good enough to be picked at 5, or a complete bust. Without him playing a game, we'll never know if Burke's words had merit or if he is just as delusional as you think he is. Your anger towards Burke shows a complete lack of faith in Rielly. It's like you're saying he couldn't possibly be that good because Burke picked him.

My anger towards Burke is because I feel he hasn't delivered.  I don't want him to blow sunshine up my nether regions any more.  I don't want him to make statements to justify his actions, which is where I come off on the comment on Rielly, I want him to deliver results that justify his actions.  His methods have not produced the team that he promised us.  Everyone gets a grace period.  4 years is a long grace period.  He needs to assemble a team that makes the playoffs.

If you really want a statement to get mad about and attack, forget what he said about Rielly, take this quote from the star on JVR:

"We?ve got a number of players on our team who?ve had concussions. That doesn?t mean you?re particularly susceptible to additional concussions."

That's just medically false.

When crosby and his doctors gave that news conference prior to the season, the doctors said that exact same thing. That when you are healed, you aren't more prone to concussions and that coming back to early is what is the main cause of a recurrence of a concussion.

Yes, coming back too early is a problem, but everything I've heard (and examples such as Eric and Brett Lindros, Pat Lafontaine, Marc Savard) suggests that you become more susceptible as well -- unless you count anything but "never" coming back too soon.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

What about all the players who have had concussions who never have another in the NHL?

Maybe those players were just more susceptible to getting their heads hit with the way they played.

Not that I can claim to know anything medically about concussions.

 

[princedpw]

What about all the players who have had concussions who never have another in the NHL?

Maybe those players were just more susceptible to getting their heads hit with the way they played.

Not that I can claim to know anything medically about concussions.

I'm not a doctor but I do recall a number of articles suggesting that having one concussion tends to make you more susceptible to the next.  In addition, a number have players have stopped playing because their doctors believed that they had become so susceptible to concusions that continuing to play would have placed their brain in great jeopardy.  These facts are not contradicted by the fact that there exist players who have concussions and then do not immediately (or ever) have another.  Those players may simply be lucky or extra carefull or medically unusual or some combination.  I certainly accept the fact that our understanding of how concussions work is fairly limited.  Still, I thought it was widely accepted that having a significant concussion increases the probability that you have another.

 

[Zee]

I'm a little disappointed that Burke hasn't drafted a few more goalies in his tenure.

He has signed four goalies as free agents.  Gus did not work out, but was worth the risk, and Rynnas does not appear to have developed.  But Scrivens is loooking promising and so is Owuya.

The trouble with drafting goalies is that there is a relatively low corrrelation between how high they are drafted and how successful they are.  Plus, you have to find spots for all of them to play.

Scrivens turns 26 this year, he has to be better than just "promising" real soon. How many goalies go that long before getting a regular spot in the NHL?

 

[L K]

What about all the players who have had concussions who never have another in the NHL?

Maybe those players were just more susceptible to getting their heads hit with the way they played.

Not that I can claim to know anything medically about concussions.

I'm not a doctor but I do recall a number of articles suggesting that having one concussion tends to make you more susceptible to the next.  In addition, a number have players have stopped playing because their doctors believed that they had become so susceptible to concusions that continuing to play would have placed their brain in great jeopardy.  These facts are not contradicted by the fact that there exist players who have concussions and then do not immediately (or ever) have another.  Those players may simply be lucky or extra carefull or medically unusual or some combination.  I certainly accept the fact that our understanding of how concussions work is fairly limited.  Still, I thought it was widely accepted that having a significant concussion increases the probability that you have another.

It does to an extent but really, we still are terrible at assessing concussions in general.  Well more importantly, in assessing the Post Concussion Syndrome/Traumatic Brain Injury Syndrome.  There still isn't a very clear mechanism for why people get this and to be honest, I'm far more concerned with the player who has a legitimate PCS than I am with a guy who blacks out for 30 seconds and then carries on with his life aside from a 24-48 hour long headache.  (Strictly from a sport/performance standpoint as some of the data is suggesting that even mild TBI can actually correlate with some scary long-term effects).

 

[Corn Flake]

No, I got that. What I'm saying is, Rielly could end up being the best player in the draft, or good enough to be picked at 5, or a complete bust. Without him playing a game, we'll never know if Burke's words had merit or if he is just as delusional as you think he is. Your anger towards Burke shows a complete lack of faith in Rielly. It's like you're saying he couldn't possibly be that good because Burke picked him.

My anger towards Burke is because I feel he hasn't delivered.  I don't want him to blow sunshine up my nether regions any more.  I don't want him to make statements to justify his actions, which is where I come off on the comment on Rielly, I want him to deliver results that justify his actions.  His methods have not produced the team that he promised us.  Everyone gets a grace period.  4 years is a long grace period.  He needs to assemble a team that makes the playoffs.

If you really want a statement to get mad about and attack, forget what he said about Rielly, take this quote from the star on JVR:

"We?ve got a number of players on our team who?ve had concussions. That doesn?t mean you?re particularly susceptible to additional concussions."

That's just medically false.

When crosby and his doctors gave that news conference prior to the season, the doctors said that exact same thing. That when you are healed, you aren't more prone to concussions and that coming back to early is what is the main cause of a recurrence of a concussion.

Yes, coming back too early is a problem, but everything I've heard (and examples such as Eric and Brett Lindros, Pat Lafontaine, Marc Savard) suggests that you become more susceptible as well -- unless you count anything but "never" coming back too soon.

I think it's the difference between it being a medical truth and just a practical reality with players who have gotten repeated ones ... it's in the way they play that makes them prone, not that they have some medical reason they keep getting hit in the head.

We all know Lindros was famous for skating with his head down - perfect example. 

 

[Kin]

The trouble with drafting goalies is that there is a relatively low corrrelation between how high they are drafted and how successful they are.

That actually sounds like an excellent argument for drafting goalies, especially in the later rounds.

 

[bustaheims]

The trouble with drafting goalies is that there is a relatively low corrrelation between how high they are drafted and how successful they are.

That actually sounds like an excellent argument for drafting goalies, especially in the later rounds.

Yeah. I mean, I'm all for not using a 1st round pick on a goalie unless they're pretty much a sure thing, but, at the same time, teams really should be adding a young goalie to the organization at least every other year - whether it be through the draft or free agency. For what it's worth, Burke has added five young goalies since he took over as GM, though, only one through the draft.

 

[rdowdall]

The trouble with drafting goalies is that there is a relatively low corrrelation between how high they are drafted and how successful they are.

That actually sounds like an excellent argument for drafting goalies, especially in the later rounds.

Yeah. I mean, I'm all for not using a 1st round pick on a goalie unless they're pretty much a sure thing, but, at the same time, teams really should be adding a young goalie to the organization at least every other year - whether it be through the draft or free agency. For what it's worth, Burke has added five young goalies since he took over as GM, though, only one through the draft.

Wasn't it last years 7th rounder?

 

[bustaheims]

Wasn't it last years 7th rounder?

One of last year's 7th rounders, yeah.

 

[Kin]

Yeah. I mean, I'm all for not using a 1st round pick on a goalie unless they're pretty much a sure thing, but, at the same time, teams really should be adding a young goalie to the organization at least every other year - whether it be through the draft or free agency. For what it's worth, Burke has added five young goalies since he took over as GM, though, only one through the draft.

I think though that this point is specific to goalies in the draft. If the argument is that younger goalies are harder to project then 18 year olds will have more potential for scouts being way off on them than, say, a 23 year old FA. If the appeal is to take advantage of that then the draft is the way to go.

That said, I think it's getting less and less true. Goalies like Lundqvist, Miller and Thomas are examples of goalies picked deep in the draft starring but they're all on the wrong side of 30. When you look at the best young goalies in the league:

Rask
Quick
Price
Schneider
Markstrom
Enroth
Bernier

Only Enroth and Quick weren't first round picks but none of them got past the third round. I guess Lindback is an example of a good young goalie picked late but if wikipedia is to be believed he dropped because of a potentially debilitating case of something called Still's disease.

 

[Peter D.]

Yeah. I mean, I'm all for not using a 1st round pick on a goalie unless they're pretty much a sure thing, but, at the same time, teams really should be adding a young goalie to the organization at least every other year - whether it be through the draft or free agency. For what it's worth, Burke has added five young goalies since he took over as GM, though, only one through the draft.

I've been all for Burke signing all these goalies, but the quantity doesn't necessarily translate to the quality and using Burke's free wallet analogy, right now we've just found some loose change with these goalies.

While I wouldn't want to see the Leafs burning up a 1st to draft a goalie often, at a time like this when the system needs replenishing I wouldn't mind it.  Sure, goalies take longer to develop and you can sign veterans with track records through free agency, but acquiring a #1 goalie has become more difficult these days.  I just really want to see the Leafs groom a guy from the get-go, and really long for the day when we could tout that we had two potential studs in Rask and Pogge both in the system. 

Two of the most important positions, and the most difficult to obtain -- goaltending and a #1 centre -- and Burke has yet to address either.  :-\

 

[maplesyrup]

The Twitterverse is exploding on the belief that Howson was offered the Islanders entire draft - Yes, Snow offered all their picks to move up two spots and Howson turned them down. I mean, what/who is nuttier? A) The rumour or (if true), B) Howson, or C) Snow?