2012 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[Fanatic]

Fox Sports Article

For the third time in a week, Anthopoulos stunned the baseball world. I don?t know about you, but I think it?s going to work

 

[Corn Flake]

I follow your logic here Nik, but on thing AA does well is he keeps his cards very close to his chest. The fact that we were hearing about some of the names probably meant that AA wasn't going to go in that direction.

I mean, Olney's a pretty good reporter, but he said Riggleman was in the running when he hadn't even been interviewed and that's just one example.

Who said Riggleman hadn't been interviewed?

His agent said he had not been contacted by the Jays.

Right, well, call me pedantic if you want but that doesn't actually contradict anything Olney reported.

A little, yeah .... but you would think the Jays would have at least made one phone call to Riggleman or his agent prior to making him a finalist for the job, you know to see if he's at all interested or maybe has decided to become a monk or something.

 

[Kin]

A little, yeah .... but you would think the Jays would have at least made one phone call to Riggleman or his agent prior to making him a finalist for the job, you know to see if he's at all interested or maybe has decided to become a monk or something.

Except that's not really what he said either. If he'd called him a "finalist", I'd agree that implies a formality to the process that would suggest there'd been interviews. Just saying that he was a name they considered, even if he was "one of the final names" they considered doesn't really imply that. To me, anyway.

 

[#1PilarFan]

Right, well, call me pedantic if you want but that doesn't actually contradict anything Olney reported.

Well, literally, I guess you're right, as Olney only said he was one of the final names to be discussed. But, I'm not too familiar with too many companies that create a final list of names for a position when they haven't even reached out to the candidate.

But that wasn't really my point to begin with.

 

[Kin]

Well, literally, I guess you're right, as Olney only said he was one of the final names to be discussed. But, I'm not too familiar with too many companies that create a final list of names for a position when they haven't even reached out to the candidate.

I think you're kind of making it into something it isn't though. A discussion can be pretty freaking informal. I don't know that it implies a list being drawn up.

And that's kind of my point. If Olney's right, and like you say he's a good reporter and I'm inclined not to dismiss what he says as outright bunk, it does kind of say that they were "considering" plans X, Y and Z right up until the last minute which does not suggest that Gibbons was AA's guy all along.

But that wasn't really my point to begin with.

No, I know. I was just clarifying how it fit into how I saw things. What I would say to you about your point is that, you're right, AA does usually play his cards close. Which usually means that we don't hear rumours, not that we hear a bunch of rumours as we did here and they turn out to be untrue.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think the more telling stat is that Gibbons has not had another stint as a manager since leaving the Jays.

He had a chance during those years in the relative wilderness to interview for the managing job with the New York Mets, the team he came up with. He turned it down.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/article/1290388--blue-jays-hire-john-gibbons-this-move-is-the-one-that-gives-me-the-most-hope-kelly

There's one example for you. Maybe there were others, too.  He was hired by the Royals as their bench coach fairly soon after his firing by the Jays.

 

[Justin]

Fox Sports Article

For the third time in a week, Anthopoulos stunned the baseball world. I don?t know about you, but I think it?s going to work

It's refreshing to have the US media paying more attention to the Jays lately, and Morosi is a big part of that. He's great on the FAN, has written several articles on the Jays over the past year, and tweets about the Jays pretty often for a US-based media guy.

 

[hockeyfan1]

John Gibbons brings back memories of Alex Rios, Russ Adams, Shea Hillenbrand, Ted Lilly, Gustavo Chacin, Josh Towers, and Miguel Batista. Those are names I do not want to remember. This team was 305-305 under Gibbons - the pinnacle of mediocrity.

I remember that era, too.  When I read whom the Jays chose,  I was a bit puzzled as to why they would go back into the past with a mediocre manager again.

Oh well, circa 2012, maybe there will be a difference this time.  Maybe Gibbons will have some 'magic' up his sleeve.

 

[hockeyfan1]

According to Sportsnet's Stephen Brunt, this explains the why in the hiring of Gibbons...

Anthopoulos knows what he's getting, right down to the no BS, occasionally confrontational style that during the final days of Gibbons' first stint with the Jays led to embarrassing dust-ups with Ted Lilly and Shea Hillenbrand -- a quality he clearly thinks is desirable with the current group of Blue Jays. He obviously trusts him completely. And he can count on Gibbons' loyalty, given that he offered an unlikely return to the Bigs.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/11/20/blue_jays_alex_anthopoulos_trusts_in_john_gibbons_stephen_brunt/

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Shea Hillenbrand weighs in.

After Hillenbrand wrote ?play for yourself? and ?the ship is sinking? on a clubhouse bulletin board, Gibbons called a team meeting and, in front of the other players and coaches, challenged Hillenbrand to a fight. Gibbons later told the Jays? front office he would quit if Hillenbrand wasn?t cut.

Then-GM J.P. Ricciardi sided with Gibbons, said the team was better off without Hillenbrand and sent the former all-star packing to San Francisco.

Hillenbrand?s career lasted just one more season, which was spent with three different teams.

So if anyone might hold a grudge against Gibbons, it would be Hillenbrand.

And yet, over the phone from his home in Phoenix, the 37-year-old sounded thrilled by news of Gibbons? hiring.

?That?s awesome,? he said. ?He?s a great guy.?

Hillenbrand, who has been out of baseball for four years, said the highly publicized conflict was his doing.

?I think he handled the situation that we had very professionally and I didn?t handle it professionally at all,? said the father of three, who owns a ranch in Arizona and devotes most of his time these days to a foundation that uses baseball and animals to teach life lessons to at-risk youth.

?All I know is that during my time with him he was a really good manager and I think he did a really good job with what he had.?

Ironically, what Hillenbrand said made Gibbons such a great manager was how approachable and accessible he was. ?I think John?s going to be a great addition to that ball club and he?s a great guy.?

Full article: http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/article/1290231--blue-jays-hire-john-gibbons-as-manager-reports

 

[Corn Flake]

John Gibbons brings back memories of Alex Rios, Russ Adams, Shea Hillenbrand, Ted Lilly, Gustavo Chacin, Josh Towers, and Miguel Batista. Those are names I do not want to remember. This team was 305-305 under Gibbons - the pinnacle of mediocrity.

IMO, Those names bring back memories of JP, not Gibbons.

 

[Andy007]

Shea Hillenbrand weighs in.

After Hillenbrand wrote ?play for yourself? and ?the ship is sinking? on a clubhouse bulletin board, Gibbons called a team meeting and, in front of the other players and coaches, challenged Hillenbrand to a fight. Gibbons later told the Jays? front office he would quit if Hillenbrand wasn?t cut.

Then-GM J.P. Ricciardi sided with Gibbons, said the team was better off without Hillenbrand and sent the former all-star packing to San Francisco.

Hillenbrand?s career lasted just one more season, which was spent with three different teams.

So if anyone might hold a grudge against Gibbons, it would be Hillenbrand.

And yet, over the phone from his home in Phoenix, the 37-year-old sounded thrilled by news of Gibbons? hiring.

?That?s awesome,? he said. ?He?s a great guy.?

Hillenbrand, who has been out of baseball for four years, said the highly publicized conflict was his doing.

?I think he handled the situation that we had very professionally and I didn?t handle it professionally at all,? said the father of three, who owns a ranch in Arizona and devotes most of his time these days to a foundation that uses baseball and animals to teach life lessons to at-risk youth.

?All I know is that during my time with him he was a really good manager and I think he did a really good job with what he had.?

Ironically, what Hillenbrand said made Gibbons such a great manager was how approachable and accessible he was. ?I think John?s going to be a great addition to that ball club and he?s a great guy.?

Full article: http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/article/1290231--blue-jays-hire-john-gibbons-as-manager-reports

There sure has been alot of positive reaction towards the Gibbons hiring. Hentgen, John MacDonald, articles on yahoosports (Tim Brown), and various media types all laud Gibbons for his knowledge and relationship with players.

I guess I'm warming up to the idea but I just wonder why, if he is such a perfect fit, he was about a billion miles off of anyone's radar during the hiring process.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Hope this happens, seems like he would be a great addition as bench coach: http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121123&content_id=40405248&vkey=news_tor&c_id=tor

 

[Deebo]

Hope this happens, seems like he would be a great addition as bench coach: http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20121123&content_id=40405248&vkey=news_tor&c_id=tor

?@masnRoch: Told DeMarlo Hale has accepted bench coach job in Toronto. Big loss for #orioles?

Orioles reporter for MASN

 

[#1PilarFan]

Jays announce coaching staff

Pretty interesting group of guys. Hale, of course, is the new bench coach. Murphy's moved from hitting coach to 1B coach much to the delight of Jays fans everywhere. Walker moves from the 'pen to replace Walton. Mottola comes from Vegas to be the new hitting coach. And Rivera is added to ensure that a coach speaks Spanish.

Nothing terribly exciting, but most Jays fans wanted Murphy gone from hitting coach and Hale seems to be a solid addition.

Also, word on the street is Hentgen might be the new bullpen coach.

 

[Corn Flake]

Interesting that Walton got the boot but a little surprised at Pete Walker getting the promotion.  I was hoping for a more dramatic change in the pitching dept. especially with the major injury problems.  I had kind of hoped Sal Fasano was going to get that gig.  Anyone who can show Roy Halladay how to make a pitch even more dangerous has some ability right there. 

Like that Murphy is still around but not in charge of the hitters anymore.  I think he brought a lot to the table but wasn't the guy to teach the young hitters how to plan an at bat and be patient.

 

[Kin]

Well, I guess AA sure doesn't think that the problem was internal of late. Still strikes me as odd that the team wouldn't go in a new direction but, heck, I said I don't think the manager/coaches matter too much and I suppose I'm sticking with it.

 

[Corn Flake]

Well, I guess AA sure doesn't think that the problem was internal of late. Still strikes me as odd that the team wouldn't go in a new direction but, heck, I said I don't think the manager/coaches matter too much and I suppose I'm sticking with it.

It's quite frustrating that this seems to be one area where AA and co. are sticking their heads in the sand on.  The major pitching injuries go back to the Brad Anrsberg days.... Marcum, Litsch and McGowan being the most prominent names who got seriously hurt.  Not much has changed and it's only gotten worse.

Greg (take with a grain of salt) Zaun was discussing the injury problems on radio a while back and his suggestion was that the biggest reason for the injuries being that they have brought kids up too soon without enough time spent in the minors. His main point was you shouldn't expect a kid to come up and establish as a full time SP without having put in 200 innings a year at minor league levels first.  The exposure to that workload, MLB hitting quality and general pressure of the big show combined puts them at risk for injury.. trying to throw an extra MPH or two harder, more pitches, etc etc.. all contributes.

Not likely the only reason, but could very well be a big factor.  Rushing young pitchers - mostly due to other injuries opening roster spots up - is not a great approach.

Hopefully with the veterans acquired and overall experienced depth, the need to promote kids too early will subside.

 

[Kin]

It's quite frustrating that this seems to be one area where AA and co. are sticking their heads in the sand on.  The major pitching injuries go back to the Brad Anrsberg days.... Marcum, Litsch and McGowan being the most prominent names who got seriously hurt.  Not much has changed and it's only gotten worse.

Greg (take with a grain of salt) Zaun was discussing the injury problems on radio a while back and his suggestion was that the biggest reason for the injuries being that they have brought kids up too soon without enough time spent in the minors. His main point was you shouldn't expect a kid to come up and establish as a full time SP without having put in 200 innings a year at minor league levels first.  The exposure to that workload, MLB hitting quality and general pressure of the big show combined puts them at risk for injury.. trying to throw an extra MPH or two harder, more pitches, etc etc.. all contributes.

I think the problem with that theory, or at least the one that got raised the most often this season when Washington sat Strasburg, is that that idea about the use of young pitchers doesn't seem to hold up to medical or quantifiable proof. Marcum, for instance, is an example of a guy who was brought along slowly. He had multiple seasons in the minors with 150+ innings pitched and then a big league year at 160 before being a full-time member of the rotation and ka-boom, Tommy John. McGowan is another guy who got quite a few seasons of 150 innings before being part of a big-league rotation when his arm started to go.

So I don't know if there's really a good way to approach injuries. There's competing theories and there's logic to the Zaun one even if it doesn't check out but I'm inclined to think that arm problems for pitchers are so common and so resistant to pattern that there's no real way to be overly critical of how a team handles a young staff. I genuinely think that if there was a medical consensus out there that teams would follow it to the letter just because of the tremendous investment they're making in these young arms.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Hasn't there just been a league-wide increase in pitching injuries?  Unless perhaps someone can show me otherwise, I think the whole pitching injuries thing is blown out of proportion because of what happened this past season.

I like Mottola being promoted.  I've read about him for awhile now and how well regarded he is.