2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion

[Kin]

Paying a guy that can't make a roster (which is essentially what he is) $925K vs. a UFA that can for $700K?  I'm not really seeing any value here.

Yeah, it's really hard to imagine any NHL team not effectively having their own version of Josh Leivo already in house besides.

 

[Deebo]

If they didn't sign him, he'd have 0 value as he would have been a UFA after the season, now they retain his rights and if he can play next year and perform well, that's an asset.

Since Leivo has been talking about just wanting to play, I don't understand why he would sign. Seems like he was more concerned about guaranteed money on a one-way deal which he may not have gotten on the open market.

 

[Kin]

I think there's still more value now than say the Leafs letting Leivo walk for free due to the logjam, especially for Leivo (guaranteed money for at least 1 more year, and the chance to make a mark).

I don't think anyone's questioning if it looks ok for Leivo.

A middle round pick or two for Leivo is a far better bet than actually drafting a player there, particularly for teams that want their depth now, rather than 3+ years later if at all.

Or you just go out and sign/promote your own depth and keep your picks for the best of both worlds.

Also, I don't know how many young scoring forwards are signed at sub-$1M out of UFA.
https://capfriendly.com/signings/all/standard/forwards/1-1/500000-1000000

Nail Yakupov, I guess? That's a special case. Seth Griffith?

If the idea is that he's effectively NHL scoring depth without much of a ceiling beyond that then his youth is largely immaterial. That's the general problem with depth scorers to begin with. They're not in very high demand because teams generally prefer grinders/veterans/"intangibles" in that role.

 

[Kin]

The only way I see it making sense is if the team effectively plans on letting him play next year, which almost certainly means letting JVR walk and not replacing him externally. Which answers one question but raises our old "Why in the world didn't they trade JVR" friend from the dead.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

If the idea is that he's effectively NHL scoring depth without much of a ceiling beyond that then his youth is largely immaterial. That's the general problem with depth scorers to begin with. They're not in very high demand because teams generally prefer grinders/veterans/"intangibles" in that role.

Yeah, that's always been my issue with Leivo. If he's not going to be a 20-goal scorer then he won't have a career in the NHL. And I don't think he's going to be a 20-goal scorer. Teams are moving away from a traditional "bottom-6" roster yeah but he's still just not versatile enough to have an everyday job in that kind of role. That's exactly why I wanted to keep Leipsic instead because he seemed to have that versatility.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Also, I don't know how many young scoring forwards are signed at sub-$1M out of UFA.
https://capfriendly.com/signings/all/standard/forwards/1-1/500000-1000000

Nail Yakupov, I guess? That's a special case. Seth Griffith?

Just from the top of the list Chiasson, Pirri, and Hayes all seem fairly comparable to Leivo.

 

[herman]

Also, I don't know how many young scoring forwards are signed at sub-$1M out of UFA.
https://capfriendly.com/signings/all/standard/forwards/1-1/500000-1000000

Nail Yakupov, I guess? That's a special case. Seth Griffith?

Just from the top of the list Chiasson, Pirri, and Hayes all seem fairly comparable to Leivo.

I was digging for sub-1M contracts signed by the non-drafting team that expires to RFA. Either way, as the guys have said above, there is no particular pressure for a team to want Leivo specifically, and it's not as attractive a trade piece as I first thought.

edit: Greg McKegg is in that pile too!

 

[Highlander]

This is exciting.  If I have read the buzz on this board correctly, he's the next Marlie folks think is ready to make the step into the Show.

I know nothing about his game or who he is but I've decided he will be our Tomas Holmstrom.

He's basically like Bobby Orr, but on left wing.

You mean like Morgan Rielly?

You can't hurt my feelings, I have skin like a Rhino and a trunk like an Elephant

 

[rdowdall]

This is exciting.  If I have read the buzz on this board correctly, he's the next Marlie folks think is ready to make the step into the Show.

I know nothing about his game or who he is but I've decided he will be our Tomas Holmstrom.

I thought Grundstr?m was Holmstrom, and Johnsson was Zetterberg?

 

[Frank E]

If they didn't sign him, he'd have 0 value as he would have been a UFA after the season, now they retain his rights and if he can play next year and perform well, that's an asset.

Since Leivo has been talking about just wanting to play, I don't understand why he would sign. Seems like he was more concerned about guaranteed money on a one-way deal which he may not have gotten on the open market.

I get what you're saying, but I think we're disputing the term "asset", as it relates to Leivo.

They've called up guys from the AHL around him to play when someone goes down at winger.  That's not a guy that I would deem to be worth anything at all, and I'd argue that maybe having the contract spot open would be of more value.

 

[sickbeast]

If they didn't sign him, he'd have 0 value as he would have been a UFA after the season, now they retain his rights and if he can play next year and perform well, that's an asset.

Since Leivo has been talking about just wanting to play, I don't understand why he would sign. Seems like he was more concerned about guaranteed money on a one-way deal which he may not have gotten on the open market.

I get what you're saying, but I think we're disputing the term "asset", as it relates to Leivo.

They've called up guys from the AHL around him to play when someone goes down at winger.  That's not a guy that I would deem to be worth anything at all, and I'd argue that maybe having the contract spot open would be of more value.

I think the Leafs might have Leivo in their plans for next season when Komarov and JVR are probably both gone.

 

[Frank E]

If they didn't sign him, he'd have 0 value as he would have been a UFA after the season, now they retain his rights and if he can play next year and perform well, that's an asset.

Since Leivo has been talking about just wanting to play, I don't understand why he would sign. Seems like he was more concerned about guaranteed money on a one-way deal which he may not have gotten on the open market.

I get what you're saying, but I think we're disputing the term "asset", as it relates to Leivo.

They've called up guys from the AHL around him to play when someone goes down at winger.  That's not a guy that I would deem to be worth anything at all, and I'd argue that maybe having the contract spot open would be of more value.

I think the Leafs might have Leivo in their plans for next season when Komarov and JVR are probably both gone.

I have seen nothing to support that kind of thinking.  What I have seen is a guy that can't even get into the lineup when there are injuries/scratches to players that play his exact position.

He's obviously not a player that Babcock wants in his lineup, at all.  That's why signing him to another year makes zero sense, especially since it's not even likely he's of any value to another team as a tradable asset because of the 1-way deal/$925K salary next season.

It's almost like Lou or Shanny feels bad for him, and flipped him a 1 year deal to make up for some unkept promise or something.

 

[sickbeast]

If they didn't sign him, he'd have 0 value as he would have been a UFA after the season, now they retain his rights and if he can play next year and perform well, that's an asset.

Since Leivo has been talking about just wanting to play, I don't understand why he would sign. Seems like he was more concerned about guaranteed money on a one-way deal which he may not have gotten on the open market.

I get what you're saying, but I think we're disputing the term "asset", as it relates to Leivo.

They've called up guys from the AHL around him to play when someone goes down at winger.  That's not a guy that I would deem to be worth anything at all, and I'd argue that maybe having the contract spot open would be of more value.

I think the Leafs might have Leivo in their plans for next season when Komarov and JVR are probably both gone.

I have seen nothing to support that kind of thinking.  What I have seen is a guy that can't even get into the lineup when there are injuries/scratches to players that play his exact position.

He's obviously not a player that Babcock wants in his lineup, at all.  That's why signing him to another year makes zero sense, especially since it's not even likely he's of any value to another team as a tradable asset because of the 1-way deal/$925K salary next season.

It's almost like Lou or Shanny feels bad for him, and flipped him a 1 year deal to make up for some unkept promise or something.

Yeah that could be it as well.  There seems to be a bit of a disconnect between Babcock and the management team.  We saw similar things with Dominic Moore.

 

[Deebo]

If they didn't sign him, he'd have 0 value as he would have been a UFA after the season, now they retain his rights and if he can play next year and perform well, that's an asset.

Since Leivo has been talking about just wanting to play, I don't understand why he would sign. Seems like he was more concerned about guaranteed money on a one-way deal which he may not have gotten on the open market.

I get what you're saying, but I think we're disputing the term "asset", as it relates to Leivo.

They've called up guys from the AHL around him to play when someone goes down at winger.  That's not a guy that I would deem to be worth anything at all, and I'd argue that maybe having the contract spot open would be of more value.

I said if he can play next year and perform well, then he's an asset. I don't know how you can dispute that a player performing well is an asset.

What we might be disputing is whether or not he will get that chance to play. He's played in 21% of the games this season and if there a couple wingers ahead of him on the depth chart that aren't with the team next year, he could definitely see that number increase.

I also don't think using a contract spot on him will stop them from being able to do other things.

I really don't see the down-side from the Leafs perspective here.

 

[herman]

They're not going to say it out loud, but it's a good thing that Andersen gets some rest during this stretch before the playoffs. We're now down Matthews and Andersen, with a great chance to see what our depth can do now while we're pretty much locked into our playoff seed.

Sparks is getting the call to back up McElhinney tonight; Fishbulb played last night too, backstopping the Marlies' 43rd win and his 5th shutout of the season.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Speaking of JVR, the less he plays, the more he scores.  No player in the league has scored 30 goals playing on average 15 minutes/g.

Source:  NHL/Advanced Stats

 

[herman]

Speaking of JVR, the less he plays, the more he scores.  No player in the league has scored 30 goals playing on average 15 minutes/g.

Source:  NHL/Advanced Stats

Perhaps you could cite the article this came from so that others can read it too.

 

[bustaheims]

An update on these numbers heading into tonight's games:

Florida: 24
Detroit: 18
Montreal: 12
Ottawa: 8
Buffalo: 3

Update:

Florida: 15
Detroit
Montreal
Ottawa
Buffalo

Florida's been on a crazy run, and it's the only reason the Leafs aren't on the brink of officially clinching a playoff spot (or, possibly, have one clinched already).

 

[Kin]

I know I'm getting a little obsessive over this but with Gardiner hitting the 40 point mark the Leafs have two forty point defensemen for the first time since 07-08.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I know I'm getting a little obsessive over this but with Gardiner hitting the 40 point mark the Leafs have two forty point defensemen for the first time since 07-08.

And the Leafs are the 2nd team in the league to have two 40-point defencemen this season. Nashville was first with Subban and Josi.

edit: Also last season it only happened twice as well. Nashville (Subban and Josi) and Columbus (Werenski and Jones). It'd be 3 teams if you count St. Louis but they traded Shattenkirk (Pietrangelo also hit 40). So it's a pretty rare feat.