2020-2021 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[Frank E]

And just to add, you can spin Kadri as a depreciating asset etc. but this was a deal where we gave up a pretty darned good player for a much lesser version + a main piece coming back that was spectacularly what the team didn't need.  It was an awful trade.

I'm gonna take some issue here with the idea that Barrie wasn't something that the team needed. For years our right side defence didn't have a defenceman capable of moving the puck. Hainsey, Zaitsev, Polak, Ozhiganov all handled the pucks like grenades. It was a giant weakness that Boston specifically was about to exploit in our playoff series' with them.

A top-4, puck moving right-handed defenceman was honestly a bigger need than a 3rd line centre for the team.

I agree, and I thought at the time that it would work out better than it obviously did.

I remember too that a lot of people blamed Babcock when the early returns showed that it wasn't working.

 

[Guilt Trip]

And just to add, you can spin Kadri as a depreciating asset etc. but this was a deal where we gave up a pretty darned good player for a much lesser version + a main piece coming back that was spectacularly what the team didn't need.  It was an awful trade.

I'm gonna take some issue here with the idea that Barrie wasn't something that the team needed. For years our right side defence didn't have a defenceman capable of moving the puck. Hainsey, Zaitsev, Polak, Ozhiganov all handled the pucks like grenades. It was a giant weakness that Boston specifically was about to exploit in our playoff series' with them.

A top-4, puck moving right-handed defenceman was honestly a bigger need than a 3rd line centre for the team.

I agree, and I thought at the time that it would work out better than it obviously did.

I remember too that a lot of people blamed Babcock when the early returns showed that it wasn't working.

I was just going to mention Babs and the way he handled Barrie among others, cough cough Spezza, Holl. No one could have predicted what happened with Barrie but sometimes things just don't work out. I wonder what would have happened if Kadri accepted the Calgary trade. We'll never know. I still have faith that Kerfoot will work out just fine.

 

[Bender]

Also I've been watching a lot of trade trees lately and one thing I've noticed is that really good teams don't just let expiring contracts walk. At some point we need to recoup assets on some of these. They really should've tried to flip Ceci for something, same goes for JVR and Bozak amongst many others. The cupboards are already bare and if you don't keep rolling assets you're basically stagnating the prospect pool and not maintaining competitiveness on value contracts.

Ceci was injured just before the deadline kicked up in earnest.

I would've acquired and flipped immediately if possible.

 

[herman]

Also I've been watching a lot of trade trees lately and one thing I've noticed is that really good teams don't just let expiring contracts walk. At some point we need to recoup assets on some of these. They really should've tried to flip Ceci for something, same goes for JVR and Bozak amongst many others. The cupboards are already bare and if you don't keep rolling assets you're basically stagnating the prospect pool and not maintaining competitiveness on value contracts.

Ceci was injured just before the deadline kicked up in earnest.

I would've acquired and flipped immediately if possible.

But his stats!

Ceci's a defenseman, and by those metrics, he's actually one of our better defenders once in the DZ.
If he has any developmental runway left in him, and he comes in at 1M or less, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to re-sign him and build up his puck confidence.

Those putrid years as Ottawa's only option on the backend have a player with good two-way potential into a skittish safe-play guy who is afraid to handle the puck for more than two seconds. Same with Ristolainen.

 

[Frank E]

I know I've mentioned it before, but something has to give if they can't have a meaningful number of fans in the stands for the small market teams next season.

 

[Kin]

Of course, but there was always the patience option. Or trade him for a better forward if that truly was the only alternative.

And if he'd exercised the "patience" option and things hadn't worked out he'd be criticized for not bolstering the defence. And "better forwards" weren't going to be available for Kadri at a price the Leafs could afford.

It was a move that didn't ultimately work out but that doesn't mean a better one was on the table.

 

[Kin]

The point in time where we should take solace from this was 2 seasons ago, I'm afraid.

It's not about "taking solace" in it. It's about recognizing the reality of the situation and wanting future moves to be guiding by realism and intelligence instead of frustration and just shuffling a deck, at best, to appease impatient fans.

All teams can do is put themselves in the best position to win. None of these series are pre-determined. Luck is a factor. So if the Leafs had, say, a 33% to win against Boston and a 60% chance to win against Columbus but both times they fell on the wrong side of those odds while stamping your feet and pretending there's some sort of magic formula to winning the Leafs just haven't cracked might make you feel good, the only real option is to keep trying to improve those odds.

 

[Kin]

I know I've mentioned it before, but something has to give if they can't have a meaningful number of fans in the stands for the small market teams next season.

I have to assume that possibility was considered while they were hammering out the CBA extension.

 

[bustaheims]

Of course, but there was always the patience option. Or trade him for a better forward if that truly was the only alternative.

And if he'd exercised the "patience" option and things hadn't worked out he'd be criticized for not bolstering the defence. And "better forwards" weren't going to be available for Kadri at a price the Leafs could afford.

It was a move that didn't ultimately work out but that doesn't mean a better one was on the table.

I'd also say the fact that both the Kadri deals the Leafs agreed to centered around defencemen going into the last season of their contracts. That tells us something about Kadri's perceived value last summer - after all, he was coming off a bit of a down year, due to the change in his role, and had a meltdown in the playoffs for the second year in a row.. A deal for a better forward was almost certainly never pursued - nor should it have been, as the last thing the Leafs needed was another expensive contract up-front - and deals for better defencemen likely were either not on the table or came at a price the team was not willing to pay.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/_nickrichard/status/1295697706481000449
I have not seen good will squandered this quickly since... Goodwill?s wage scandal actually.

 

[Frank E]

Of course, but there was always the patience option. Or trade him for a better forward if that truly was the only alternative.

And if he'd exercised the "patience" option and things hadn't worked out he'd be criticized for not bolstering the defence. And "better forwards" weren't going to be available for Kadri at a price the Leafs could afford.

It was a move that didn't ultimately work out but that doesn't mean a better one was on the table.

I'd also say the fact that both the Kadri deals the Leafs agreed to centered around defencemen going into the last season of their contracts. That tells us something about Kadri's perceived value last summer - after all, he was coming off a bit of a down year, due to the change in his role, and had a meltdown in the playoffs for the second year in a row.. A deal for a better forward was almost certainly never pursued - nor should it have been, as the last thing the Leafs needed was another expensive contract up-front - and deals for better defencemen likely were either not on the table or came at a price the team was not willing to pay.

Maybe the issue is finding a trade partner was the cap space and salary retention required to make it work.

 

[bustaheims]

Maybe the issue is finding a trade partner was the cap space and salary retention required to make it work.

Possibly, but that still very much limits the team's options in terms of making deals to upgrade the blueline. It's probably a combination of all of the factors that have been brought up. The most logical conclusion seems to be that there just wasn't better value out there. While it's possible a different defenceman would have been a better fit, a "better" defenceman or forward wasn't out there for the Leafs as part of a Kadri deal that made sense.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://twitter.com/KingstonFronts/status/1295722126951972888

McFarland leaving makes slightly more sense now.

 

[Kin]

I have not seen good will squandered this quickly since... Goodwill?s wage scandal actually.

It may, may, have something to do with people wanting to present things in the worst possible light. Like pretending that the contract Marner signed was a "show of support" by the club instead of a mutually beneficial business decision and that it's unreasonable for a guy to feel pressure because of a big new contract.

I really don't get why you're reacting to Marner the way you are.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

It's pretty funny that in what was generally considered a disappointing season for Marner he still scored at a 93-point pace (1 less point than his breakout 18/19 season).

 

[Bullfrog]

It's pretty funny that in what was generally considered a disappointing season for Marner he still scored at a 93-point pace (1 less point than his breakout 18/19 season).

Ya, I've been struggling to understand that. Are we that influenced by a less-than-stellar 5-game series?

 

[Kin]

It's pretty funny that in what was generally considered a disappointing season for Marner he still scored at a 93-point pace (1 less point than his breakout 18/19 season).

All while taking on an increased responsibility on the PK as well.

I'm not going to say he had an incredible season but if this is what an off year for Marner looks like then the Leafs have bigger problems.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

It's pretty funny that in what was generally considered a disappointing season for Marner he still scored at a 93-point pace (1 less point than his breakout 18/19 season).

Ya, I've been struggling to understand that. Are we that influenced by a less-than-stellar 5-game series?

It probably amplified it but the perception that he had a bad season was definitely a thing even before the season shut down. And I'm not even necessarily saying that it's wrong to think that, I do believe he wasn't as good as he was in 18/19. My point was more even in a down year Marner can still be one of the top offensive players in the league.

 

[bustaheims]

It's pretty funny that in what was generally considered a disappointing season for Marner he still scored at a 93-point pace (1 less point than his breakout 18/19 season).

Ya, I've been struggling to understand that. Are we that influenced by a less-than-stellar 5-game series?

He also looked less impressive this season compared to last - though, some of that is obviously influenced by he and Tavares struggling to re-ignite their chemistry early on (along with the whole team not looking great) and his recovery from an ankle issue. He was still very good, but, the eye test results weren't as good. Last season raised people's expectations for him to what is probably an unsustainable level, and, when he didn't appear to meet those expectations, along with the big new contract . . . well, that's just a perfect storm for excessive criticism.

 

[Guilt Trip]

It's pretty funny that in what was generally considered a disappointing season for Marner he still scored at a 93-point pace (1 less point than his breakout 18/19 season).

Ya, I've been struggling to understand that. Are we that influenced by a less-than-stellar 5-game series?

Not just the 5 games. He was not good in last year's playoffs and was definitely struggling this year at times along with JT. Stats look good but the eye test sure didn't. He'll be fine though.