2021-22 Training Camp Thread

[herman]

https://twitter.com/dalter/status/1446208438284038153
We will be crowning a new Crosby of the Empty Nets this season

 

[ZBBM]

Truly no offense meant busta, but I can't tell you how many times over the years we trade or otherwise get rid of a decent or even good player, who was valued by us fans when he was a Leaf, for little or nothing in return.  Then, after the fact, we hear all kinds of reasons why he wasn't any good or was on the decline or overpriced or whatever so we ought to just accept, or even praise, the transaction.  Or, "GM ______ couldn't have done any better" ? which is just an empty answer IMO.

Like I said, I'm not buying it.

I look at this trade this way: he was a top 6 forward for us, and we got nothing in return, in essence.  Maybe GT is right and he'll get called up.  Maybe I'll be proven wrong.  But I doubt it.

It's not an empty answer if reasons are given as to why we feel that way. I would compare the deal to other deals to open up cap space that were being made around the league. Other teams were trading better players than Johnsson for poor returns.

I look at the marketplace at the time and evalulate the deal based on that. Bona fide top 4 dman Nate Schmidt got a 2nd, Ryan Murray coming off a an injury plagued year got a 5th, Stastny got and depth D and a 4th. I don't think that suggests a marketplace where Johnsson was worth any more than he was traded for. I would say all of those players have a better track record and were more proven than Johnsson and got very little in return as well.

Keeping him just wasn't an option (and in hindsight would have been a disaster), and he was was moved in a deal comparable to deals for cap space around the league. I'd say you inflated his value in your head and are upset that the return didn't match that value. I don't think Johnsson was ever a top 6 forward here, in his only full-ish season he was 10th in average time on ice for forwards.

If anything, "I'm not buying it" is an empty answer when there are valid points about his value being brought up.

So, in your estimation, it plays out like this: Dubas signs him to a bad contract and then dumps his mistake for a worse player and it's all OK?

I look at it and say, there was a good player in whose development we spent a lot of resources, and who was contributing on the big club's roster, and now there's a guy who were are investing resources in and who just cleared waivers.  I call that subtraction by subtraction.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/coachrevak/status/1446240217766277123

 

[Deebo]

So, in your estimation, it plays out like this: Dubas signs him to a bad contract and then dumps his mistake for a worse player and it's all OK?

I look at it and say, there was a good player in whose development we spent a lot of resources, and who was contributing on the big club's roster, and now there's a guy who were are investing resources in and who just cleared waivers.  I call that subtraction by subtraction.

You said you didn't buy that he couldn't get a better deal for him, I was addressing that point. This has nothing to do with that.

 

[ZBBM]

So, in your estimation, it plays out like this: Dubas signs him to a bad contract and then dumps his mistake for a worse player and it's all OK?

I look at it and say, there was a good player in whose development we spent a lot of resources, and who was contributing on the big club's roster, and now there's a guy who were are investing resources in and who just cleared waivers.  I call that subtraction by subtraction.

You said you didn't buy that he couldn't get a better deal for him, I was addressing that point. This has nothing to do with that.

I appreciate the examples you gave.  I still am not convinced, but it boils down to a matter of opinion.

 

[Frank E]

So, in your estimation, it plays out like this: Dubas signs him to a bad contract and then dumps his mistake for a worse player and it's all OK?

I look at it and say, there was a good player in whose development we spent a lot of resources, and who was contributing on the big club's roster, and now there's a guy who were are investing resources in and who just cleared waivers.  I call that subtraction by subtraction.

You said you didn't buy that he couldn't get a better deal for him, I was addressing that point. This has nothing to do with that.

I appreciate the examples you gave.  I still am not convinced, but it boils down to a matter of opinion.

I think it's more speculation than opinion.

 

[Deebo]

So, in your estimation, it plays out like this: Dubas signs him to a bad contract and then dumps his mistake for a worse player and it's all OK?

I look at it and say, there was a good player in whose development we spent a lot of resources, and who was contributing on the big club's roster, and now there's a guy who were are investing resources in and who just cleared waivers.  I call that subtraction by subtraction.

You said you didn't buy that he couldn't get a better deal for him, I was addressing that point. This has nothing to do with that.

I appreciate the examples you gave.  I still am not convinced, but it boils down to a matter of opinion.

Another empty answer.

 

[bustaheims]

I'm confident Dubas made what he felt was the best deal available to him at the time. I'm also confident Johnsson's value wouldn't have changed much between the time of the trade and the beginning of the season, when clearing that cap space would have been too late (and would have left the team with less leverage). There may have been deals out there others would have preferred, but I'm willing to say there wasn't much in terms of better value being offered.

 

[Frank E]

I think maybe a fair criticism right now of the administration is that the talent assessment and acquisitions (trade or draft or overseas signings) of assets hasn't really produced much of value, even with the super duper scouting and development team.

Like, they're having to sign FA's to fill out the bottom six, as well as top six wingers around the core-4.  It seems to me that the Marlies should be developing those assets and delivering them while they're still low cost RFA.  Anderson is an example, to me, of a guy that hasn't taken any steps toward being a regular NHL contributor since his acquisition in that trade.  Was he a middling prospect at the time of the trade?  Sure...but he hasn't really improved his value since.

 

[L K]

I think maybe a fair criticism right now of the administration is that the talent assessment and acquisitions (trade or draft or overseas signings) of assets hasn't really produced much of value, even with the super duper scouting and development team.

Like, they're having to sign FA's to fill out the bottom six, as well as top six wingers around the core-4.  It seems to me that the Marlies should be developing those assets and delivering them while they're still low cost RFA.  Anderson is an example, to me, of a guy that hasn't taken any steps toward being a regular NHL contributor since his acquisition in that trade.  Was he a middling prospect at the time of the trade?  Sure...but he hasn't really improved his value since.

In fairness there last year was a shit show they really didn?t allow for a great environment for prospect development

 

[Kaberle15]

Mennel, Seney and Anderson all clear waivers.  That's a good sign for a strong Marlies team this year.

Good, Mennel and Seney really caused a good impression IMO.

 

[herman]

I think maybe a fair criticism right now of the administration is that the talent assessment and acquisitions (trade or draft or overseas signings) of assets hasn't really produced much of value, even with the super duper scouting and development team.

Like, they're having to sign FA's to fill out the bottom six, as well as top six wingers around the core-4.  It seems to me that the Marlies should be developing those assets and delivering them while they're still low cost RFA.  Anderson is an example, to me, of a guy that hasn't taken any steps toward being a regular NHL contributor since his acquisition in that trade.  Was he a middling prospect at the time of the trade?  Sure...but he hasn't really improved his value since.

In fairness there last year was a shit show they really didn?t allow for a great environment for prospect development

You can directly trace the dearth of prospect depth from the Hunter-led drafts.

In the meantime, Nylander (D+1), Hyman (D+6), Holl (D+10?), Dermott (D+3), Engvall (D+6), Brooks (D+4+2), Kasperi Kapanen (D+2), Andreas Johnsson (D+6), Frederic Gauthier (D+4), Trevor Moore (D+7), Dmytro Timashov (D+5) all came up through the Dubas-led Marlie system and have provided NHL minutes (however briefly for some). Sandin and Liljegren are on their way.

Edit: holy, I forgot Connor Brown (D+5)
Edit 2: added when they broke into the league (not accounting for artificial suppression like Nylander and Holl)

 

[Kin]

I think maybe a fair criticism right now of the administration is that the talent assessment and acquisitions (trade or draft or overseas signings) of assets hasn't really produced much of value, even with the super duper scouting and development team.

It's not a super fair criticism as the major source of talent there is the draft and the current administration has only been running the draft for a few years now. The lack of NHL talent from the Lamoriello/Hunter drafts absolutely is hurting this team and the Dubas drafts need to prove themselves in a hurry.

 

[bustaheims]

In fairness there last year was a shit show they really didn?t allow for a great environment for prospect development

You can directly trace the dearth of prospect depth from the Hunter-led drafts.

These are both fair point regarding Dubas' drafting record. Other than the influence he had in the 2015 draft, most of his draft picks haven't been in the system long enough to move the needle for the NHL team - and, having their development interrupted by the pandemic has almost certainly delayed their ascent.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/lukefoxjukebox/status/1446532414285701126
You, hockey fan: Matthews' wrist looks better
Me, a degenerate: Malhotra hockey booty still going strong

 

[rdowdall]

I think maybe a fair criticism right now of the administration is that the talent assessment and acquisitions (trade or draft or overseas signings) of assets hasn't really produced much of value, even with the super duper scouting and development team.

Like, they're having to sign FA's to fill out the bottom six, as well as top six wingers around the core-4.  It seems to me that the Marlies should be developing those assets and delivering them while they're still low cost RFA.  Anderson is an example, to me, of a guy that hasn't taken any steps toward being a regular NHL contributor since his acquisition in that trade.  Was he a middling prospect at the time of the trade?  Sure...but he hasn't really improved his value since.

There may be something to that.  If you look at cap friendly in the acquired column, of the 13 forwards the Leafs have on the roster, 4 of them were drafted.  One was traded for, and the rest were signed.  If you look at Tampa Bay, the 8 of their 13 forwards were drafted by the team, and the top seven earners for forwards on that team were all drafted. 

The defence is a little different.  The Leafs have drafted three of the six d-men listed on the site.  They traded for one of them and signed the other two.  For Tampa, they drafted two of their 7, traded for 3 and signed 2. 

Anyways, this years team does have a large contingent of FA signings.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/kpapetti/status/1446827679290900484

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Even before camp started it was always going to come down to Engvall/Brooks/Liljegren. Wish we had the cap space to fit 2 of them instead of just 1.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Even before camp started it was always going to come down to Engvall/Brooks/Liljegren. Wish we had the cap space to fit 2 of them instead of just 1.

Only good thing is Liljegren is waiver exempt so we can only lose 1 good player max. I don't consider Biega or Gabriel to be huge losses if taken.

 

[moon111]

As much as wish Engvall would play more like he was born in Alberta than Sweden, but I'd just be elated if he could effectively go to the net.  Think the Leafs need this so much, especially in the playoffs, that they should hire a Dirty Goals coach.  Hire Tim Kerr or someone to really hone or develop Ritchie, Mikheyev, Kase, Engvall, Bunting, and Simmonds in this manner.  The pretty plays and the Leafs stop in the playoffs.