All quiet on the Leaf front. But why?
- Thread starter Scrif
- Start date
Kin
New member
L K said:
Well, I think it's kind of indicative of the whole problem with trying to rate prospects in the first place. The impression that JFJ left "nothing" comes from how things looked at the time. When JFJ was fired nobody would have looked at a 7th round pick like Carl Gunnarsson as a really good prospect despite the fact that he was and it's an impression that has persisted even though we're now starting to see the fruits of those drafts.
That's why, to me at least, it's so pointless when people try to defend the job Burke has done on the basis of how he's "built" the farm system. Until it actually starts paying dividends for the NHL team it's a suspect accomplishment at best.
ZBBM
Active member
Nik? said:
This is true.
Like most people on here I have been guilty (on many occasions) of making assessments on-the-fly. Hey, it's hockey chatboard, not a dissertation defense ... but still, the only way to truly assess someone's impact as GM is to look at the bottom line.
That's why the "received wisdom" that BB is doing such a superior job to JFJ is pretty content-empty at this point. JFJ didn't take us anywhere, and so far neither has Burke. That could change as early as this upcoming season (but I'll be surprised if it does).
Corn Flake
New member
L K said:
Couple of thoughts on this.
1. Dave Morrisson has been head of amateur scouting and heads up the draft for the Leafs, and has done so since JFJ's time. I said it back then it was one of JFJ's best moves to make the changes he did to the scouting dept. It wasn't a popular move to fire the beloved Barry Trapp back then. Burke kept him on, obviously feeling the work he and his team were doing was good stuff and only helped augment the staff with a bigger budget and focus. I think this is a big part of why the team has a good collection of draft picks in the NHL and a good group currently in the system too. Under JFJ the Leafs had some good picks but it's what happened post-draft is where the mistakes were made.
2. One of the single biggest flaws this team has had since the 80's was terrible development. Its one thing to draft but a whole other to develop your prospects properly. I think this is one area where Burke's changes have made major impact and is a key reason why the names you mention above have made the NHL. Even personally where Burke got involved to help a kid like Frattin who was a kid in trouble outside of hockey and had him re-dedicate to the game. Eakins (also retained) has been an a huge reason too. Keeping young players down longer or even a little too long is something we never had. The development and patience is there like never before. If only Burke had gotten here before Schenn was kept up in his first year, things may have turned out much better for him. Kadri is another example where the extra time does a lot of good.
That development success is one of the reasons why I have a lot of faith in what Burke is doing and many of the picks he has made panning out. A pick needs to be given 4-5 years before we can truly judge.
Kin
New member
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Well, it's faith-based. It's how much stock you want to put in the persona and the reputation. I appreciate that there are some people out there who are going to view that sort of assessment as part of being a deeper or more knowledgeable fan but I think that almost always when that gets dissected it's almost always on the basis of more qualitative statements or talking about results without a control group.
I'm a bitter old cynic these days. Alls I knows is the Maple Leafs and, yeah, content-free describes it.
Corn Flake
New member
Nik? said:
We've noticed.
Corn Flake
New member
Nik? said:Corn Flake said:We've noticed.
Just so I'm clear, is that "we" as in the Maple Leafs guerrilla marketing team or are you speaking for the entire commonwealth, your majesty?
You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel.
Corn Flake
New member
jonlleafs said:
Hey, Surly only looks out for one guy...Surly!
Corn Flake
New member
Significantly Insignificant said:
I said all that and you jump on that point?
They dealt with Kadri like a prospect should be instead of promoting him when he wasn't physically ready or being responsible in his own end. He's now finally training to get strong enough to play in the NHL. It seems he now recognizes the work he needs to put in to make the show. If this were the old days, I bet he would have been up after that first camp where he dazzled everyone with his skill, got pushed around and struggled. He probably wouldn't have put the work in because he would have already been there.
It still remains to be seen whether he will make it this year but I bet he does and I think a big part is not bringing him up until he was ready. Maybe overly ready but erring on the side of taking your time is not something this organization has ever really done... ever before.
Corn Flake said:Significantly Insignificant said:
I said all that and you jump on that point?
They dealt with Kadri like a prospect should be instead of promoting him when he wasn't physically ready or being responsible in his own end. He's now finally training to get strong enough to play in the NHL. It seems he now recognizes the work he needs to put in to make the show. If this were the old days, I bet he would have been up after that first camp where he dazzled everyone with his skill, got pushed around and struggled. He probably wouldn't have put the work in because he would have already been there.
It still remains to be seen whether he will make it this year but I bet he does and I think a big part is not bringing him up until he was ready. Maybe overly ready but erring on the side of taking your time is not something this organization has ever really done... ever before.
Yeah, I agree and I hope for the organization's sake that it will finally pay off. Kadri has the skills but just getting his head straight and maturing and getting stronger was definitely what he needed. Crossing my fingers that he has a breakthrough season and explodes on the scoring sheet.
Corn Flake said:Significantly Insignificant said:
I said all that and you jump on that point?
They dealt with Kadri like a prospect should be instead of promoting him when he wasn't physically ready or being responsible in his own end. He's now finally training to get strong enough to play in the NHL. It seems he now recognizes the work he needs to put in to make the show. If this were the old days, I bet he would have been up after that first camp where he dazzled everyone with his skill, got pushed around and struggled. He probably wouldn't have put the work in because he would have already been there.
It still remains to be seen whether he will make it this year but I bet he does and I think a big part is not bringing him up until he was ready. Maybe overly ready but erring on the side of taking your time is not something this organization has ever really done... ever before.
Okay, I understand now. I thought you were saying that they took their time with Kadri, and look it paid off. I still think it's too early to tell if he is ready or not. By not rushing him however, at least the Leafs can say that they don't have a definitive answer yet.