All quiet on the Leaf front. But why?

[caver]

So... a decent trade might end this lively banter??

 

[Zee]

In the end, it seems to be mismanagement through a couple of bad deals that puts this team behind the eight ball.  In hindsight, it really makes you realize what a fairly decent job Quinn did to maintain the competence level of the Leafs for as long as he did.  Having Sundin probably helped a little though.

Absolutely. The last 9 years have definitely made me realize that Quinn was doing a better job than I often gave him credit for.

To bring it slightly back around to the topic at hand, it's impossible to cut a neat line between the team's record in drafting and development and, right now, Burke doesn't have much in the way of a record on either.

Quinn had a huge advantage of taking over a team that had a #1 goalie in Cujo (signed by Smith) and already having your stud #1 center.  Easier to add parts to a team like that.

 

[Kin]

Quinn had a huge advantage of taking over a team that had a #1 goalie in Cujo (signed by Smith) and already having your stud #1 center.  Easier to add parts to a team like that.

You can only really judge a guy on the job he does though and Quinn put together a consistently good team while drafting quite well considering where his picks were. It was impressive regardless of what he started with.

 

[Britishbulldog]

Isn't that an absolute?

Shhhh, he's supposed to get there on his own.

;D

Guys....guys....guys....so many of these exchanges make me smirk.

 

[riff raff]

Quinn had a huge advantage of taking over a team that had a #1 goalie in Cujo (signed by Smith) and already having your stud #1 center.  Easier to add parts to a team like that.

Might be splitting hairs, but it was Dryden who always took credit for signing Cujo. He went to the store to buy some ice cream and came home with a goaltender.

 

[jonlleafs]

Quinn had a huge advantage of taking over a team that had a #1 goalie in Cujo (signed by Smith) and already having your stud #1 center.  Easier to add parts to a team like that.

You can only really judge a guy on the job he does though and Quinn put together a consistently good team while drafting quite well considering where his picks were. It was impressive regardless of what he started with.

But that's the whole point.  If you were born into a rich family, you're already going to be successful and wealthy in life.  If you're born into poverty, getting to be "rich" is much harder.  So, while I'm not bashing Quinn because he still did a great job, he already had great pieces in place.  Can we not agree that Burke had less than great pieces to start with?  So, it will take him longer to get there.

 

[Kin]

But that's the whole point.  If you were born into a rich family, you're already going to be successful and wealthy in life.  If you're born into poverty, getting to be "rich" is much harder.  So, while I'm not bashing Quinn because he still did a great job, he already had great pieces in place.  Can we not agree that Burke had less than great pieces to start with?  So, it will take him longer to get there.

If you're desperate to change the subject to Burke there are dozens of other places for it. All I said is that I underestimated the really good job Quinn was doing at the time he did it. That's it. I'm complimenting Quinn. Can I really not say "Quinn did a good job" without you rushing to Burke's defense?

 

[rdowdall]

But that's the whole point.  If you were born into a rich family, you're already going to be successful and wealthy in life.  If you're born into poverty, getting to be "rich" is much harder.  So, while I'm not bashing Quinn because he still did a great job, he already had great pieces in place.  Can we not agree that Burke had less than great pieces to start with?  So, it will take him longer to get there.

If you're desperate to change the subject to Burke there are dozens of other places for it. All I said is that I underestimated the really good job Quinn was doing at the time he did it. That's it. I'm complimenting Quinn. Can I really not say "Quinn did a good job" without you rushing to Burke's defense?

But really, why should Burke need defending?

 

[sickbeast]

But that's the whole point.  If you were born into a rich family, you're already going to be successful and wealthy in life.  If you're born into poverty, getting to be "rich" is much harder.  So, while I'm not bashing Quinn because he still did a great job, he already had great pieces in place.  Can we not agree that Burke had less than great pieces to start with?  So, it will take him longer to get there.

If you're desperate to change the subject to Burke there are dozens of other places for it. All I said is that I underestimated the really good job Quinn was doing at the time he did it. That's it. I'm complimenting Quinn. Can I really not say "Quinn did a good job" without you rushing to Burke's defense?

But really, why should Burke need defending?

He doesn't.

At least he probably won't be here after next season.  Things aren't shaping up well at all.

 

[Zee]

But that's the whole point.  If you were born into a rich family, you're already going to be successful and wealthy in life.  If you're born into poverty, getting to be "rich" is much harder.  So, while I'm not bashing Quinn because he still did a great job, he already had great pieces in place.  Can we not agree that Burke had less than great pieces to start with?  So, it will take him longer to get there.

If you're desperate to change the subject to Burke there are dozens of other places for it. All I said is that I underestimated the really good job Quinn was doing at the time he did it. That's it. I'm complimenting Quinn. Can I really not say "Quinn did a good job" without you rushing to Burke's defense?

You're original observation about Quinn was "The last 9 years have definitely made me realize that Quinn was doing a better job than I often gave him credit for. " which to me sort of implies that since Quinn, the GMs haven't done a very good job.  All I'm saying is, Quinn had more bona fide NHL quality talent to work with at the start, and you're dealing from a position of power so it's easier to be successful.  I'm not taking away from what Quinn did, but if Burke had a #1 goalie and #1 center when he started, I think the Leafs would be further ahead than they are now.

 

[Kin]

You're original observation about Quinn was "The last 9 years have definitely made me realize that Quinn was doing a better job than I often gave him credit for. " which to me sort of implies that since Quinn, the GMs haven't done a very good job.

Well, let's clear that right up. I have no need to subtly imply that I don't think JFJ or Burke have done a very good job because I'm happy to, if it's the topic at hand, say it unambiguously. I'll write a song about it. Here's a haiku:

Pat Quinn was the best
then Ferguson made mistakes
that Burke did not heed

Now a Limerick:

the Maple Leafs are quite like a ship
with Mr. Burke it's ruddy faced-skip
But to helm our good vessel
he put faith in Phil Kessel
And our fortunes are taking a dip

Or:

Brian Burke, hockey's angry American
Came to work at the NHL's Vatican
in an attempt to repair it
he signed Mike Komisarek
Now let's hope he doesn't do that again

See? I have no need for nefarious implications.

What I'm referring to when I talk about the past nine years is that as some of the players Quinn drafted have established themselves as  quite good NHL players it's made me realize that in addition to his on ice success he was actually doing a pretty good job of stocking the cupboard as well.

All I'm saying is, Quinn had more bona fide NHL quality talent to work with at the start, and you're dealing from a position of power so it's easier to be successful.  I'm not taking away from what Quinn did, but if Burke had a #1 goalie and #1 center when he started, I think the Leafs would be further ahead than they are now.

Trust me, when I say that I think Quinn did a good job and Burke has done a bad job I'm absolutely taking into account where they started and what they had to work with. Yes, Burke needs to be graded on a curve but even on that curve, I'd argue he hasn't done a very good job. That is, if I were interested in turning this into the umpteenth discussion about Brian Burke's failures.

 

[jonlleafs]

You're original observation about Quinn was "The last 9 years have definitely made me realize that Quinn was doing a better job than I often gave him credit for. " which to me sort of implies that since Quinn, the GMs haven't done a very good job.

Well, let's clear that right up. I have no need to subtly imply that I don't think JFJ or Burke have done a very good job because I'm happy to, if it's the topic at hand, say it unambiguously. I'll write a song about it. Here's a haiku:

Pat Quinn was the best
then Ferguson made mistakes
that Burke did not heed

Now a Limerick:

the Maple Leafs are quite like a ship
with Mr. Burke it's ruddy faced-skip
But to helm our good vessel
he put faith in Phil Kessel
And our fortunes are taking a dip

Or:

Brian Burke, hockey's angry American
Came to work at the NHL's Vatican
in an attempt to repair it
he signed Mike Komisarek
Now let's hope he doesn't do that again

See? I have no need for nefarious implications.

What I'm referring to when I talk about the past nine years is that as some of the players Quinn drafted have established themselves as  quite good NHL players it's made me realize that in addition to his on ice success he was actually doing a pretty good job of stocking the cupboard as well.

All I'm saying is, Quinn had more bona fide NHL quality talent to work with at the start, and you're dealing from a position of power so it's easier to be successful.  I'm not taking away from what Quinn did, but if Burke had a #1 goalie and #1 center when he started, I think the Leafs would be further ahead than they are now.

Trust me, when I say that I think Quinn did a good job and Burke has done a bad job I'm absolutely taking into account where they started and what they had to work with. Yes, Burke needs to be graded on a curve but even on that curve, I'd argue he hasn't done a very good job. That is, if I were interested in turning this into the umpteenth discussion about Brian Burke's failures.

What has Burke done so wrong that he hasn't done a good job?  He's made some pretty good trades since coming here and the prospect pool is getting deeper despite not having an elite talent (maybe Rielly).  What you're telling me is that the following trades were not good?

Beauchemin (got for nothing but money) for Lupul and Gardiner
  -  Turned a free asset into 2 very valuable and productive assets.
Mixed bag of parts + Ian White for Phaneuf and Ashton Carter (via Aulie)
  -  Whether you like Phaneuf or not, he hasn't been terrible and put up some decent points last season.
Two 1sts + 2nd for Kessel
  -  Ya we paid a lot for Kessel, but he finished 6th in league scoring registering 82pts.  That's the most points for any forward since 1999.  That's top tier elite talent.
1st + Colbourne for Kaberle
  -  This was a very good trade IMO for a decline Kaberle and while I know you don't like it, offsets the Kessel trade a bit since I think Boston overpaid for Kaberle here. 
Franson + Lombardi for Lebda + Slaney
  -  This was also a good trade getting rid of spare parts for Franson who still has upside and Lombardi was serviceable after coming in as merely a contract dump.

Aside from the trades, some acquisitions were good.

MacArthur
  -  Picked him up for free and got him at a steal at $1.5mil the 1st year.
Bozak
  -  While Bozak is not a #1 center, he's been forced to play there, but he'd be a really good 3rd line center.  And he got Bozak for free, prying him away from a bunch of other teams.
Scrivens + Owuya + Rynnas
  -  Got all three of these goalies for free (only money) and Scrivens looks to be at least a good serviceable NHL backup if not more.

Has he made some bad pickups?  Sure.  Komi and Connolly wasn't his best moves, but no GM is perfect.  Has the team performed up to what's expected?  No.  Hopefully the coaching change and bringing in his own guy does the trick.  He doesn't really have another coaching change left I don't think, but he can still make acquisitions or trades.  But aside from that, I think he's done a decent enough job regardless of the performance on the ice.  We went from one of the oldest teams in the league to one of the youngest.  Young teams are going to be inconsistent as they learn the trade.  That isn't Burkes fault.

So, now, tell me what has Burke done warrants the "not doing a good job"?

 

[Kin]

So, now, tell me what has Burke done warrants the "not doing a good job"?

You do see the bit at the end where I say I'm not interested in turning this into yet another discussion about Burke's failures, right?

 

[jonlleafs]

So, now, tell me what has Burke done warrants the "not doing a good job"?

You do see the bit at the end where I say I'm not interested in turning this into yet another discussion about Burke's failures, right?

Sure, but you've been talking away in several threads decrying how Burke has done a terrible job and yet I haven't read anything substantial from you as to why.  So, if you want to not talk about it fine, but if you're going to say how someone's doing a bad job, you should explain what you mean and give examples.

I say he's doing a decent to good job and I gave clear examples of why I feel that way. 

 

[Kin]

Sure, but you've been blabbering away in several threads decrying how Burke has done a terrible job and yet I haven't read anything substantial from you as to why.  So, if you want to not talk about it fine, but if you're going to say how someone's doing a bad job, you should explain what you mean and give examples.

The reason I'm not interested in hashing it out again is because I've already done so on these boards multiple times. Do a search of posts I've made that contain "Burke" and "Failed" and you get a pretty good number of results. Feel free to go a diggin'

As to whether my arguments are substantial or not, well, given the way that you seem so desperate to read an innocuous compliment given to Pat Quinn as a vicious attack on Brian Burke, you'll forgive me for thinking that you're not the most objective party in that regard.

 

[jonlleafs]

Sure, but you've been blabbering away in several threads decrying how Burke has done a terrible job and yet I haven't read anything substantial from you as to why.  So, if you want to not talk about it fine, but if you're going to say how someone's doing a bad job, you should explain what you mean and give examples.

The reason I'm not interested in hashing it out again is because I've already done so on these boards multiple times. Do a search of posts I've made that contain "Burke" and "Failed" and you get a pretty good number of results. Feel free to go a diggin'

As to whether my arguments are substantial or not, well, given the way that you seem so desperate to read an innocuous compliment given to Pat Quinn as a vicious attack on Brian Burke, you'll forgive me for thinking that you're not the most objective party in that regard.

Quinn did a good job but he also had his critics and his run & gun style of coaching.  He had some great teams to work with and most NHL-calibre coaches would have probably done well with them as well if not better.  I look at some of the teams he's had and they were stacked to the gills.  So ya sure he did well.  I'm not saying Burke is the messiah and our savior.  I'm saying that he's done a decent job up to now and that this story isn't played out yet.  Maybe after next season I may change my tune if things aren't appreciably better. 

 

[Kin]

Quinn did a good job but he also had his critics and his run & gun style of coaching.  He had some great teams to work with and most NHL-calibre coaches would have probably done well with them as well if not better.  I look at some of the teams he's had and they were stacked to the gills.

I would challenge you to name one Pat Quinn team that was "stacked to the gills" when compared to the Dallas, Colorado, Detroit, New Jersey or Philadelphia teams of the era.

I'm not saying Burke is the messiah and our savior.

You could have fooled me. Because, you know, this is not a conversation about Brian Burke save for your efforts to turn it into one.

 

[jonlleafs]

Quinn did a good job but he also had his critics and his run & gun style of coaching.  He had some great teams to work with and most NHL-calibre coaches would have probably done well with them as well if not better.  I look at some of the teams he's had and they were stacked to the gills.

I would challenge you to name one Pat Quinn team that was "stacked to the gills" when compared to the Dallas, Colorado, Detroit, New Jersey or Philadelphia teams of the era.

I'm not saying Burke is the messiah and our savior.

You could have fooled me. Because, you know, this is not a conversation about Brian Burke save for your efforts to turn it into one.

The 2003-2004 team was a pretty darn good team and deserved a better fate than what they accomplished.

 

[Kin]

The 2003-2004 team was a pretty darn good team and deserved a better fate than what they accomplished.

They were good but I don't think they were measurably better than the Flyers were. Sundin and Nieuwendyk were the only two forwards on that team who scored 50 points or more.

 

[jonlleafs]

The 2003-2004 team was a pretty darn good team and deserved a better fate than what they accomplished.

They were good but I don't think they were measurably better than the Flyers were. Sundin and Nieuwendyk were the only two forwards on that team who scored 50 points or more.

Well, if only we had the concussion rule back then.  Roenick might have been knocked out of that one game by Tucker and wouldn't have scored the winning goal (if I remember it correctly).  But I thought they could have beaten them.  They went to 7 games and the 7th game was the very next night after the 6th game and with Belfour's wonky back, he just couldn't recover in time.  Stupid NHL scheduling again.  I think they could have had a better shot if they made the game 2 or 3 nights later.