All quiet on the Leaf front. But why?

[rdowdall]

So let me ask you this.  Can you with 100% certainty tell me what Burke is going to do to make this team better in the next year or two.  Can you guarantee that a playoff spot is coming within the next two years, and tell me exactly what Burke is going to do to provide that playoff spot? 

I 100% cannot tell you whether or not its going to work.  I don't know, you don't know and he doesn't know.  Anyone who says differently is blowing smoke.  You put your plan together, you do what you think will work and see what happens.  I have lots of concerns and worries about how the team is being built. Things I like and don't like. But at the bare bones of the plan I think it can and eventually will work out. 

Because I can, with 100% certainty show you what he *has* done, and how it has *not* worked on the ice to date as it pertains to getting in to the playoffs.

Of course you can show me that with 100% certainty.. but I know they didn't make the playoffs so you don't have to. I see the moves he has made that have not worked too. The reality is not every move has to work.  We would agree on most and disagree on a few others. 

I can also tell you a lot of rebuilding teams were the laughing stock of the league for years and years until it came together.  It wasn't until after it did that people stopped laughing.  We used to laugh and joke about LA, Chicago, even Pittsburgh in those really awful years. 

So again what I'm saying is we don't know how this will pan out, but it's too soon to judge.  Don't take optimistic outlooks as conclusions it's all guaranteed to work out wonderfully in the end.

But my original point was that with the money at the disposal of the Leafs, they should be able to put together a management team that is right more often than wrong.  I believe that the Burke regiment has been right as often, or less often, than they have been wrong, and when they came in to power with the Leafs, they didn't really have that luxury.

 

[Kin]

Look how long the Kings were mediocre or bad?  They toiled at the bottom for countless years.  They got "lucky" landing both Carter and Richards for spare parts.  The coaching change obviously helped too, but you forget the fact that the Kings had to go through this whole rebuild process in order to get to the end goal.

This reads like the worst kind of cherry-picking. Dean Lombardi's Kings were bad for three years which is countable by most. Brayden Schenn was their organization's top prospect but the incredibly risky move of packaging him for Mike Richards is an instance of making a "lucky" trade for "spare parts".

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I won't quote, because it's a few pages back, but some GM's have been at their post, without a cup for a long time and I don't hear the constant calling for their heads. The fans cheer for the team that is iced, that's what I'll do.

I mean, only in Toronto is the expectation that the cup come fast and always the next year or else we need to fire the guy that's in there pronto and start over, maybe the new guy is quicker.

Toronto will never be patient enough for development of it's drafted players to mature.

As far as the timeline question, I didn't put a time limit on it, but I guess I was okay with letting Burke try to fast track it. It didn't work for reasons that have been mentioned over the last 2 years and the plan kind of changed. I've accepted that the fast track didn't work.

The only thing I would have had a problem with, is if Burke started selling off the kids for aging vets. He didn't do that, so I'll let him complete this and watch the kids mature and develop. But I also understand that 29 teams don't win the cup every year, so the odds are against teams.

 

[Kin]

Toronto will never be patient enough for development of it's drafted players to mature.

Totes. I mean, empty seat after empty seat, TV numbers in the toilet, profits drying up to nothing despite really affordable seats...what an impatient fanbase.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Toronto will never be patient enough for development of it's drafted players to mature.

Totes. I mean, empty seat after empty seat, TV numbers in the toilet, profits drying up to nothing despite really affordable seats...what an impatient fanbase.

They're more than welcome to sit at home and wait for a good team, since you know, they have a choice. I'll enjoy the development, I've seen enough UFA built teams almost make it deep into the playoffs.

Just because they buy a ticket or a jersey doesn't entitle them to fire and hire or expect the cup any quicker.

 

[rdowdall]

I won't quote, because it's a few pages back, but some GM's have been at their post, without a cup for a long time and I don't hear the constant calling for their heads. The fans cheer for the team that is iced, that's what I'll do.

When I made a comment about teams that rebuilt quickly, I had to name those teams.  Now you name yours.  Show me the other teams that have missed the playoffs for the previous 3 years under their current GM, and which fans are singing that GM's praises?

I mean, only in Toronto is the expectation that the cup come fast and always the next year or else we need to fire the guy that's in there pronto and start over, maybe the new guy is quicker.

My expectation is that things improve.  That each year progress is made.  Progress is not being made.  There has been very little progress to date, other than turning over the complete roster and *hoping* that it works in the next season.

Toronto will never be patient enough for development of it's drafted players to mature.

The Leafs drafted Kessel?

As far as the timeline question, I didn't put a time limit on it, but I guess I was okay with letting Burke try to fast track it. It didn't work for reasons that have been mentioned over the last 2 years and the plan kind of changed. I've accepted that the fast track didn't work.

So, just to recap.  Burke's original plan failed.  He was not able to execute it.  Now he has a new plan, and this plan is sure to work?  And if the new plan doesn't work?

The only thing I would have had a problem with, is if Burke started selling off the kids for aging vets. He didn't do that, so I'll let him complete this and watch the kids mature and develop. But I also understand that 29 teams don't win the cup every year, so the odds are against teams.

Ah yes, but 16  teams make the playoffs, which is over half the league, so it would be preposterous to think that after three years of missing the playoffs under one GM, that we would somehow make it in within the next 4 under a new GM.

 

[Bender]

Toronto will never be patient enough for development of it's drafted players to mature.

Totes. I mean, empty seat after empty seat, TV numbers in the toilet, profits drying up to nothing despite really affordable seats...what an impatient fanbase.

I think it's less to do with patience and more with being either gluttons for punishment or foolishly optimistic until things spiral out of control.

 

[Kin]

I think it's less to do with patience and more with being either gluttons for punishment or foolishly optimistic until things spiral out of control.

But it's the only measure of patience that ownership will take note of. Who cares if a bunch of fans are angrily calling into talk radio shows if they're still buying tickets and watching on TV?

The Leafs have the patience from their fans to absolutely take the slow route while still remaining profitable. That they haven't done so is on them, not the fans.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

I won't quote, because it's a few pages back, but some GM's have been at their post, without a cup for a long time and I don't hear the constant calling for their heads. The fans cheer for the team that is iced, that's what I'll do.

I mean, only in Toronto is the expectation that the cup come fast and always the next year or else we need to fire the guy that's in there pronto and start over, maybe the new guy is quicker.

Toronto will never be patient enough for development of it's drafted players to mature.

As far as the timeline question, I didn't put a time limit on it, but I guess I was okay with letting Burke try to fast track it. It didn't work for reasons that have been mentioned over the last 2 years and the plan kind of changed. I've accepted that the fast track didn't work.

The only thing I would have had a problem with, is if Burke started selling off the kids for aging vets. He didn't do that, so I'll let him complete this and watch the kids mature and develop. But I also understand that 29 teams don't win the cup every year, so the odds are against teams.

First of all, Toronto has been out of the playoffs for 7 years. There is not one other team, nor 1 GM who's overseen such mediocrity. If fans are being critical it makes sense. As the Kings showed this year, you've got to be good to be lucky and lucky to be good. You also have to make the playoffs.

Burke came in and said he would fast track the rebuild (or re-tool) and made the Kessel deal. He's never come out and said it was a bad deal (which it was) or said the direction and philosophy of the team has changed since that debacle.

He's constantly gone on about how he could make the playoffs and never once done it. That is hugely annoying for those of us who want the Leafs to be competitive again. I'd personally have been happier trading what we did for Kessel, for Richards instead as his contract is for the rest of his career.

Instead Burke gave up a Kings ransom for Kessel and then made it worse by only signing him for 5 years. If Kessel walks, that will go down as one of the worst deals in Leafs history.

 

[Kin]

They're more than welcome to sit at home and wait for a good team, since you know, they have a choice. I'll enjoy the development, I've seen enough UFA built teams almost make it deep into the playoffs.

Just because they buy a ticket or a jersey doesn't entitle them to fire and hire or expect the cup any quicker.

You missed the point there just a smidge.

 

[Corn Flake]

I think it's less to do with patience and more with being either gluttons for punishment or foolishly optimistic until things spiral out of control.

But it's the only measure of patience that ownership will take note of. Who cares if a bunch of fans are angrily calling into talk radio shows if they're still buying tickets and watching on TV?

The Leafs have the patience from their fans to absolutely take the slow route while still remaining profitable. That they haven't done so is on them, not the fans.

So you don't think they are taking advantage of that now? You don't think this is the slow route? Sure seems that way to me. I know you think it's all a complete failure and all but that would only add to the slow part.

 

[Kin]

So you don't think they are taking advantage of that now? You don't think this is the slow route?

Not really, no.

 

[jonlleafs]

Ah yes, but 16  teams make the playoffs, which is over half the league, so it would be preposterous to think that after three years of missing the playoffs under one GM, that we would somehow make it in within the next 4 under a new GM.

If I stripped you of everything in your life except the clothes on your body, shoes, and $20 bucks.  How long would it take you to get back to a point where you could buy a house?  Is that an extreme example?  Yes, but basically that's what we're coming from as far as organizational depth.  JFJ stripped this team severely of talent and brought in even less talented vets.  I will give him this, the good vets we did have were aging to a point where they were less effective.  You can't ask for the world without putting into context where we came from in regards to the talent pool in the organization.

Since Burke has started, we have become one of the youngest teams in the league.  If you forget, we were one of the oldest in JFJ's tenure.  We have a stockpile of A- to B level prospects.  I'd say A++ are elite (we don't have that).  So, ya, I'd say we are moving in the right direction.

 

[rdowdall]

Ah yes, but 16  teams make the playoffs, which is over half the league, so it would be preposterous to think that after three years of missing the playoffs under one GM, that we would somehow make it in within the next 4 under a new GM.

If I stripped you of everything in your life except the clothes on your body, shoes, and $20 bucks.  How long would it take you to get back to a point where you could buy a house?  Is that an extreme example?  Yes, but basically that's what we're coming from as far as organizational depth.  JFJ stripped this team severely of talent and brought in even less talented vets.  I will give him this, the good vets we did have were aging to a point where they were less effective.  You can't ask for the world without putting into context where we came from in regards to the talent pool in the organization.

Since Burke has started, we have become one of the youngest teams in the league.  If you forget, we were one of the oldest in JFJ's tenure.  We have a stockpile of A- to B level prospects.  I'd say A++ are elite (we don't have that).  So, ya, I'd say we are moving in the right direction.

And my original point was that Dean Lombardi was back in the playoffs within 4 years of him taking over a Kings team that was very much stripped down as well.  He had elite level prospects and a core that most in the League thought was capable of competing for a cup. 

So here is my question though.  I will try and spell it out again just in case people are still confused.  If in 4 years, Dean Lombardi can take a non-playoff, to a playoff team, in the LA Market, why is it, that Brian Burke can't produce a team that can make the playoffs within the same timeframe?  Most pundits agree that the Leafs are not all that close to making the playoffs either.  Usually when you hear people say "Well they need a 1st line center, and a #1 defenceman, and a #1 goalie, and then they will make it" that is a bad sign.  Those players do not currently exist within the Leafs organization, and currently they do no have a prospect that projects to be one of those players.     

 

[Beowulf]

It's a bit mind boggling to me the amount of people on here that are totally defending Burke and the management team thus far and attacking anyone who is raising questions against him.

Has he made some positive moves? Yes. But there are countless other moves he has or hasn't made that have not been good. You can say that he has improved the prospect pool which he may well have done, but in his own words he has stated that he wants to make the playoffs pretty much every season. He's made moves to try and make the playoffs and failed; this has so far NOT been a full on rebuild (the slow route) by any means.

I'm not saying he is incapable of pulling it off and turning it around, or that he hasn't made some positive steps as well, but thus far there is no doubt he has not performed up to par.

And BWB, you keep saying people are holding Burke accountable for all 7 years and even the past 40+ years of cup futility as well. That's simply not true, I don't see anyone doing that at all. I am only evaluating him based on what I've seen during his tenure. And it's been pretty mediocre overall so far.

 

[Joe S.]

Toronto will never be patient enough for development of it's drafted players to mature.

Totes. I mean, empty seat after empty seat, TV numbers in the toilet, profits drying up to nothing despite really affordable seats...what an impatient fanbase.

All sarcasm aside, I feel that things in the city will be changing at some point... It seems to me kids growing up these days care more about the Raptors than the Leafs. And kids these days also have the shortest attention span - so I don't see them filling the seats win or lose when it comes time for them to start buying tickets...

I guess what I'm trying to say is the maple leaf gravy train may be coming to an end...

 

[Kin]

All sarcasm aside, I feel that things in the city will be changing at some point... It seems to me kids growing up these days care more about the Raptors than the Leafs. And kids these days also have the shortest attention span - so I don't see them filling the seats win or lose when it comes time for them to start buying tickets...

I guess what I'm trying to say is the maple leaf gravy train may be coming to an end...

I think there's some truth there but I think that's very heavily influenced by the Leafs 8 year absence from the playoffs. I think that even an average amount of success would change things around very quickly.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

And BWB, you keep saying people are holding Burke accountable for all 7 years and even the past 40+ years of cup futility as well. That's simply not true, I don't see anyone doing that at all. I am only evaluating him based on what I've seen during his tenure. And it's been pretty mediocre overall so far.

I don't keep saying it, I said above.

People can evaluate Burke and call what he did mediocre all they want, I guess I just don't see where it gets anybody is all. In the end, everybody can either go cheer for another team, or cheer for this team and back them up on the ice, rather than booing a young team off the ice.

So after 3 and a half years, he is suppose to have a cup, or simply make the playoffs? What does making the playoffs accomplish, if we simply fail to go anywhere in those playoffs?

What I meant about other GM's not having to put up with some of the hostility that Burke has, was a GM like Regier, who has been with his organization for a lot of years without a cup, but Burke has to make everything roses is 3 years or he should be toast.

I guess the bottom line for me is that in my opinion, winning a cup has no sure fire recipe, but some talk like there is a recipe and Burke should have pulled it off by now. Gripe away, I don't care..

 

[Beowulf]

I have to go out so I don't have time to respond fully atm, but I will say this:

And BWB, you keep saying people are holding Burke accountable for all 7 years and even the past 40+ years of cup futility as well. That's simply not true, I don't see anyone doing that at all. I am only evaluating him based on what I've seen during his tenure. And it's been pretty mediocre overall so far.

I don't keep saying it, I said above.

People can evaluate Burke and call what he did mediocre all they want, I guess I just don't see where it gets anybody is all. In the end, everybody can either go cheer for another team, or cheer for this team and back them up on the ice, rather than booing a young team off the ice.

Again, who is saying they're not going to be cheering for this team or booing them? Is anyone on this board saying that? I'm not sure where you're getting this from.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Again, who is saying they're not going to be cheering for this team or booing them? Is anyone on this board saying that? I'm not sure where you're getting this from.

I say fans in general, not just particularly on this board. There are Leaf fans everywhere. It's the general feel, rather than quoting anybody. I'll just shut up, since my optimism is in the minority.

EDIT: I also don't have time to argue every point today, especially the ones that have been argued in the past.