All quiet on the Leaf front. But why?

[rdowdall]

After reading that LA Kings wiki, I want Dean Lombardi....

The grass is always greener, eh? That very same Dean Lombardi was likely on the verge of losing his job in March.

And look at that, he made a coaching change and a trade to save his job.  It's like he knew what he was doing or something.

 

[rdowdall]

I can see the improvement, it doesn't really bother me that others can't, they're the ones that are disgruntled all the time about it.

Seriously. It's like some people have felt the exact same way about the Leafs for seven straight years. Change it up, people.

Yeah those people are the same ones that blame Burke for the entire 40 whatever years it's been, even the full 7 years you're talking about, half of which he wasn't even here for. No amount of your sarcastic humour changes it, I sleep well.

Some need to admit that just because Burke said he was going to try and fast-track the rebuild, didn't mean it was for sure going to happen. He changed the direction a while ago, but we keep hearing, "but he said, he said". I think people need to get behind their team, instead of bashing it constantly, because everything that Burke said didn't happen exactly the way he planned, no amount of griping will change reality.

Okay, so we have to be thankful to Burke because he built up the prospect pool?  That's what we have to be thankful for?  It's a results driven industry, where are the results?  People keep saying, oh their coming, oh how those results are coming.  All these great prospects that Burke has assembled are going to lead us in to the playoffs, any *year* now.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

It's a results driven industry, where are the results?  People keep saying, oh their coming, oh how those results are coming.  All these great prospects that Burke has assembled are going to lead us in to the playoffs, any *year* now.

Generally, you wait and develop prospects, no? Not many of them step right in and save a franchise. What else are you going to do but wait and develop?

I guess you could keep griping about not making the playoffs, maybe that would help.

 

[bustaheims]

And look at that, he made a coaching change and a trade to save his job.  It's like he knew what he was doing or something.

And, had they not succeeded, we'd be saying he made those moves out of desperation. It's a duel edged sword. In hindsight, those moves look good, but, they had equal chance of looking bad.

 

[Corn Flake]

I can see the improvement, it doesn't really bother me that others can't, they're the ones that are disgruntled all the time about it.

Seriously. It's like some people have felt the exact same way about the Leafs for seven straight years. Change it up, people.

Yeah those people are the same ones that blame Burke for the entire 40 whatever years it's been, even the full 7 years you're talking about, half of which he wasn't even here for. No amount of your sarcastic humour changes it, I sleep well.

Some need to admit that just because Burke said he was going to try and fast-track the rebuild, didn't mean it was for sure going to happen. He changed the direction a while ago, but we keep hearing, "but he said, he said". I think people need to get behind their team, instead of bashing it constantly, because everything that Burke said didn't happen exactly the way he planned, no amount of griping will change reality.

Okay, so we have to be thankful to Burke because he built up the prospect pool?  That's what we have to be thankful for?  It's a results driven industry, where are the results?  People keep saying, oh their coming, oh how those results are coming.  All these great prospects that Burke has assembled are going to lead us in to the playoffs, any *year* now.

We are saying the results are not in yet.  Not declaring it a success even though you and others are declaring it a failure.  See the difference?

 

[rdowdall]

It's a results driven industry, where are the results?  People keep saying, oh their coming, oh how those results are coming.  All these great prospects that Burke has assembled are going to lead us in to the playoffs, any *year* now.

Generally, you wait and develop prospects, no? Not many of them step right in and save a franchise. What else are you going to do but wait and develop?

I guess you could keep griping about not making the playoffs, maybe that would help.

Okay, let me ask you this.  When Burke first came in, honestly, how long did you think it would take for him to rebuild this team?  How long are you giving him to turn this team in to a playoff contender and then in to a Stanley Cup contender? And if you keep adjusting your timeline because of reasons like "Well the Kessel deal kinda backfired." and "The Komisarek signing was a little bit ill advised" and "Armstrong just turned out to be a little too brittle" and "Connolly was never *supposed* to be a true number one", at what point are you just making excuses for bad deals?

You get mad at the people who want things to be done, but you never offer up your take on it.  It's easy to sit there as say,"Your assumptions are wrong.  Your just a pessimist.  You just want the Leafs to lose and be negative all the time", but you never offer up what timetable you were expecting, which makes me think, that no matter what, regardless of what happens, you will always support what the Leafs do, and always view it as being the correct course of action.  So the question is, when is it the incorrect course of action? 

We are allowed, as fans, to be objective.  To say, this isn't working doesn't mean that we hate the team.  It doesn't mean that  we want to cheer for someone else.  It means that we want better, and that we deserve better, as fans of this team, just like the fans of every other team.

 

[rdowdall]

I can see the improvement, it doesn't really bother me that others can't, they're the ones that are disgruntled all the time about it.

Seriously. It's like some people have felt the exact same way about the Leafs for seven straight years. Change it up, people.

Yeah those people are the same ones that blame Burke for the entire 40 whatever years it's been, even the full 7 years you're talking about, half of which he wasn't even here for. No amount of your sarcastic humour changes it, I sleep well.

Some need to admit that just because Burke said he was going to try and fast-track the rebuild, didn't mean it was for sure going to happen. He changed the direction a while ago, but we keep hearing, "but he said, he said". I think people need to get behind their team, instead of bashing it constantly, because everything that Burke said didn't happen exactly the way he planned, no amount of griping will change reality.

Okay, so we have to be thankful to Burke because he built up the prospect pool?  That's what we have to be thankful for?  It's a results driven industry, where are the results?  People keep saying, oh their coming, oh how those results are coming.  All these great prospects that Burke has assembled are going to lead us in to the playoffs, any *year* now.

We are saying the results are not in yet.  Not declaring it a success even though you and others are declaring it a failure.  See the difference?

So I will ask you the same question I asked BWB, what was your timeline?  Honestly, how long before Burke turned this team in to a playoff team and how long before it was a Stanley cup contender?

 

[rdowdall]

And look at that, he made a coaching change and a trade to save his job.  It's like he knew what he was doing or something.

And, had they not succeeded, we'd be saying he made those moves out of desperation. It's a duel edged sword. In hindsight, those moves look good, but, they had equal chance of looking bad.

So is it your contention that he got lucky then?  That the only reason that the Kings won the Stanley cup is that Dean Lombardi got lucky?

 

[We_Miss_Sundin]

It's a results driven industry, where are the results?  People keep saying, oh their coming, oh how those results are coming.  All these great prospects that Burke has assembled are going to lead us in to the playoffs, any *year* now.

Generally, you wait and develop prospects, no? Not many of them step right in and save a franchise. What else are you going to do but wait and develop?

I guess you could keep griping about not making the playoffs, maybe that would help.

Okay, let me ask you this.  When Burke first came in, honestly, how long did you think it would take for him to rebuild this team?  How long are you giving him to turn this team in to a playoff contender and then in to a Stanley Cup contender? And if you keep adjusting your timeline because of reasons like "Well the Kessel deal kinda backfired." and "The Komisarek signing was a little bit ill advised" and "Armstrong just turned out to be a little too brittle" and "Connolly was never *supposed* to be a true number one", at what point are you just making excuses for bad deals?

You get mad at the people who want things to be done, but you never offer up your take on it.  It's easy to sit there as say,"Your assumptions are wrong.  Your just a pessimist.  You just want the Leafs to lose and be negative all the time", but you never offer up what timetable you were expecting, which makes me think, that no matter what, regardless of what happens, you will always support what the Leafs do, and always view it as being the correct course of action.  So the question is, when is it the incorrect course of action? 

We are allowed, as fans, to be objective.  To say, this isn't working doesn't mean that we hate the team.  It doesn't mean that  we want to cheer for someone else.  It means that we want better, and that we deserve better, as fans of this team, just like the fans of every other team.

+1 .... Too many Burke sympathizers around here.  The bottom line is results and we have yet to get any from Burke and co.  no more excuses.. please!!

 

[jonlleafs]

And look at that, he made a coaching change and a trade to save his job.  It's like he knew what he was doing or something.

And, had they not succeeded, we'd be saying he made those moves out of desperation. It's a duel edged sword. In hindsight, those moves look good, but, they had equal chance of looking bad.

So is it your contention that he got lucky then?  That the only reason that the Kings won the Stanley cup is that Dean Lombardi got lucky?

Look how long the Kings were mediocre or bad?  They toiled at the bottom for countless years.  They got "lucky" landing both Carter and Richards for spare parts.  The coaching change obviously helped too, but you forget the fact that the Kings had to go through this whole rebuild process in order to get to the end goal. 

 

[Corn Flake]

So I will ask you the same question I asked BWB, what was your timeline?  Honestly, how long before Burke turned this team in to a playoff team and how long before it was a Stanley cup contender?

We have no way of knowing until my time machine gets back from the shop.

I think this is part of the problem with you guys who call it all a failure... you want hard deadlines for this stuff and it realistically can't be provided.  As badly as I would like to know the answer, it won't be known until it happens.  It looked like it would be last year for the first 4 months and I was as disappointed and frustrated as anyone else when it fell apart. 

I think you guys think some of the more positive people sit around immune to the frustration and hair pulling that goes on when the team goes through what it did and how long its been since we saw a playoff game here.  Couldn't be further from the truth. 

 

[bustaheims]

So is it your contention that he got lucky then?  That the only reason that the Kings won the Stanley cup is that Dean Lombardi got lucky?

There's an element of luck in every championship in every sport, so, yes, to some extent, Lombardi and the Kings got lucky. But, it's more that he was fortunate that, in hindsight, he made the right moves - which is really the key. There's really no way of knowing for sure if a move is the right move at the time you make it (you can, however, frequently tell when something is likely a wrong move). You certainly hope it is, but, you just can't tell until things actually play themselves out. And, sometimes, the only moves you're presented with are the wrong moves, and, in those cases, the right move is to do nothing - and, for all we know, that could be exactly what has happened with the Leafs.

 

[Corn Flake]

And look at that, he made a coaching change and a trade to save his job.  It's like he knew what he was doing or something.

And, had they not succeeded, we'd be saying he made those moves out of desperation. It's a duel edged sword. In hindsight, those moves look good, but, they had equal chance of looking bad.

So is it your contention that he got lucky then?  That the only reason that the Kings won the Stanley cup is that Dean Lombardi got lucky?

Look how long the Kings were mediocre or bad?  They toiled at the bottom for countless years.  They got "lucky" landing both Carter and Richards for spare parts.  The coaching change obviously helped too, but you forget the fact that the Kings had to go through this whole rebuild process in order to get to the end goal.

Plus, the general perception there was that it took about 2 years longer than most people thought it would.  Many analysts had the Kings atop their division and even the conference, dominating everyone as far back as 2 seasons ago. 

 

[Bullfrog]

Man you've been negative lately. We're just complimenting the guy on being well-spoken. Can't we just leave it at that?

Be fair. The post being quoted there says the Leafs brass "really knows what they're doing" and not "are well-spoken". It's not unreasonable to point out the differences there.

True.

However, the intent behind my remark was just that a comment about Dave Poulin being well-spoken seems to have sparked critique over the results/competency of the management team. Coupled with the criticism of Hendricks' fairly innocent remarks, it just seems that people's frustrations are showing a bit too quickly. But really, that's totally understandable.

 

[rdowdall]

So I will ask you the same question I asked BWB, what was your timeline?  Honestly, how long before Burke turned this team in to a playoff team and how long before it was a Stanley cup contender?

We have no way of knowing until my time machine gets back from the shop.

I think this is part of the problem with you guys who call it all a failure... you want hard deadlines for this stuff and it realistically can't be provided.  As badly as I would like to know the answer, it won't be known until it happens.  It looked like it would be last year for the first 4 months and I was as disappointed and frustrated as anyone else when it fell apart. 

I think you guys think some of the more positive people sit around immune to the frustration and hair pulling that goes on when the team goes through what it did and how long its been since we saw a playoff game here.  Couldn't be further from the truth.

So let me ask you this.  Can you with 100% certainty tell me what Burke is going to do to make this team better in the next year or two.  Can you guarantee that a playoff spot is coming within the next two years, and tell me exactly what Burke is going to do to provide that playoff spot? 

Because I can, with 100% certainty show you what he *has* done, and how it has *not* worked on the ice to date as it pertains to getting in to the playoffs.

 

[rdowdall]

So is it your contention that he got lucky then?  That the only reason that the Kings won the Stanley cup is that Dean Lombardi got lucky?

There's an element of luck in every championship in every sport, so, yes, to some extent, Lombardi and the Kings got lucky. But, it's more that he was fortunate that, in hindsight, he made the right moves - which is really the key. There's really no way of knowing for sure if a move is the right move at the time you make it (you can, however, frequently tell when something is likely a wrong move). You certainly hope it is, but, you just can't tell until things actually play themselves out. And, sometimes, the only moves you're presented with are the wrong moves, and, in those cases, the right move is to do nothing - and, for all we know, that could be exactly what has happened with the Leafs.

So basically you just said that at any given point in time, you have to make the right choice to be considered *good* at what you do.  So my contention is that to date, Burke has not made the correct number of right choices, and that, using the Kings as an example, Dean Lombardi did.

 

[Kin]

However, the intent behind my remark was just that a comment about Dave Poulin being well-spoken seems to have sparked critique over the results/competency of the management team.

Ok but, again, that critique was not in response to your claim that he's well-spoken but rather a claim of competency. It could just as easily be said that the leap there is being made by people who want to assert this management's competency for whatever tenuous reason they can find.

 

[rdowdall]

And look at that, he made a coaching change and a trade to save his job.  It's like he knew what he was doing or something.

And, had they not succeeded, we'd be saying he made those moves out of desperation. It's a duel edged sword. In hindsight, those moves look good, but, they had equal chance of looking bad.

So is it your contention that he got lucky then?  That the only reason that the Kings won the Stanley cup is that Dean Lombardi got lucky?

Look how long the Kings were mediocre or bad?  They toiled at the bottom for countless years.  They got "lucky" landing both Carter and Richards for spare parts.  The coaching change obviously helped too, but you forget the fact that the Kings had to go through this whole rebuild process in order to get to the end goal.

I already showed that the Kings are pretty much on the same timeline as the Leafs, and that they have now won a cup.  In order for the Leafs to equal the Kings timeline, they need to win the cup next year.  Do you feel the Leafs are going to win the cup next year?  Honestly, is this something you would feel comfortable betting your mortgage on? 

 

[Corn Flake]

So let me ask you this.  Can you with 100% certainty tell me what Burke is going to do to make this team better in the next year or two.  Can you guarantee that a playoff spot is coming within the next two years, and tell me exactly what Burke is going to do to provide that playoff spot? 

I 100% cannot tell you whether or not its going to work.  I don't know, you don't know and he doesn't know.  Anyone who says differently is blowing smoke.  You put your plan together, you do what you think will work and see what happens.  I have lots of concerns and worries about how the team is being built. Things I like and don't like. But at the bare bones of the plan I think it can and eventually will work out. 

Because I can, with 100% certainty show you what he *has* done, and how it has *not* worked on the ice to date as it pertains to getting in to the playoffs.

Of course you can show me that with 100% certainty.. but I know they didn't make the playoffs so you don't have to. I see the moves he has made that have not worked too. The reality is not every move has to work.  We would agree on most and disagree on a few others. 

I can also tell you a lot of rebuilding teams were the laughing stock of the league for years and years until it came together.  It wasn't until after it did that people stopped laughing.  We used to laugh and joke about LA, Chicago, even Pittsburgh in those really awful years. 

So again what I'm saying is we don't know how this will pan out, but it's too soon to judge.  Don't take optimistic outlooks as conclusions it's all guaranteed to work out wonderfully in the end. 

 

[Kin]

I think a distinction needs to be made between "results" and "success". Lombardi's tenure with the Kings was one where the team basically improved on a straight line until this season. If he was a move or two away from getting fired it would have been getting fired after a 101 and 98 point season. Those are results.