All quiet on the Leaf front. But why?

[jonlleafs]

Really enjoyed that interview, thanks.

x2

As much as people bash Burke et al, the hockey minds behind the management team really do know what they are doing.  They are professional to the tee.

 

[Bender]

Really enjoyed that interview, thanks.

x2

As much as people bash Burke et al, the hockey minds behind the management team really do know what they are doing.  They are professional to the tee.

Half the time I think people think that Burke is the only member if staff, or at least the only one who makes decisions.

 

[Zee]

Really enjoyed that interview, thanks.

x2

As much as people bash Burke et al, the hockey minds behind the management team really do know what they are doing.  They are professional to the tee.

At what point does having well spoken, intelligent hockey minds translate onto on ice success?  To be honest I'd rather have a group of guys who gave terrible interviews and sounded like complete baffoons as long as they could put a winning product on the ice.  Let's see some results with all this top tier management talent.

 

[rdowdall]

Really enjoyed that interview, thanks.

x2

As much as people bash Burke et al, the hockey minds behind the management team really do know what they are doing.  They are professional to the tee.

At what point does having well spoken, intelligent hockey minds translate onto on ice success?  To be honest I'd rather have a group of guys who gave terrible interviews and sounded like complete baffoons as long as they could put a winning product on the ice.  Let's see some results with all this top tier management talent.

I think this is what I find so frustrating about the Leafs situation.  It's not like they haven't spent money on their front office.  It's not like Burke hasn't brought in experienced people to help him out.  Yet the results are so poor.  I don't know if it's just bad luck, or if it's just that these high paid exec's can't think outside the box enough to get them out of this predicament.

 

[Corn Flake]

Really enjoyed that interview, thanks.

x2

As much as people bash Burke et al, the hockey minds behind the management team really do know what they are doing.  They are professional to the tee.

At what point does having well spoken, intelligent hockey minds translate onto on ice success?  To be honest I'd rather have a group of guys who gave terrible interviews and sounded like complete baffoons as long as they could put a winning product on the ice.  Let's see some results with all this top tier management talent.

I think this is what I find so frustrating about the Leafs situation.  It's not like they haven't spent money on their front office.  It's not like Burke hasn't brought in experienced people to help him out.  Yet the results are so poor.  I don't know if it's just bad luck, or if it's just that these high paid exec's can't think outside the box enough to get them out of this predicament.

If I may.... it's very hard to try and boil down what has prevented this team from being legit again, but to me most broad stroke view of it is  that most of the key pieces this crew has acquired are all still developing at various levels.  The team will get better when those young players start to deliver.  That takes time. I also think in this market it's harder than almost anywhere else to develop young players due to the pressure and scrutiny.  We have seen spurts of it but the consistency isn't there yet.  But it will come.

The solid first 4 months of last year kind of gave us a false sense of belief that this team was ready to be a playoff team again.  The reality was they clearly were not, but the anger and frustration probably wouldn't have been as nasty as it was if they had had more of an even keeled .500 season rather than the crazy wave of great success and HUGE failure we rode. 

It has been mind bendingly frustrating to follow this team in the last couple of years and we are all so sick and tired of losing that it feels like tomorrow might be the day we give up on this team.  But IMO it will turn around once what I said above starts to happen.

 

[TML fan]

4 years is not a long time.

 

[rdowdall]

Really enjoyed that interview, thanks.

x2

As much as people bash Burke et al, the hockey minds behind the management team really do know what they are doing.  They are professional to the tee.

At what point does having well spoken, intelligent hockey minds translate onto on ice success?  To be honest I'd rather have a group of guys who gave terrible interviews and sounded like complete baffoons as long as they could put a winning product on the ice.  Let's see some results with all this top tier management talent.

I think this is what I find so frustrating about the Leafs situation.  It's not like they haven't spent money on their front office.  It's not like Burke hasn't brought in experienced people to help him out.  Yet the results are so poor.  I don't know if it's just bad luck, or if it's just that these high paid exec's can't think outside the box enough to get them out of this predicament.

If I may.... it's very hard to try and boil down what has prevented this team from being legit again, but to me most broad stroke view of it is  that most of the key pieces this crew has acquired are all still developing at various levels.  The team will get better when those young players start to deliver.  That takes time. I also think in this market it's harder than almost anywhere else to develop young players due to the pressure and scrutiny.  We have seen spurts of it but the consistency isn't there yet.  But it will come.

The solid first 4 months of last year kind of gave us a false sense of belief that this team was ready to be a playoff team again.  The reality was they clearly were not, but the anger and frustration probably wouldn't have been as nasty as it was if they had had more of an even keeled .500 season rather than the crazy wave of great success and HUGE failure we rode. 

It has been mind bendingly frustrating to follow this team in the last couple of years and we are all so sick and tired of losing that it feels like tomorrow might be the day we give up on this team.  But IMO it will turn around once what I said above starts to happen.

The two pieces that concern me are:

1.  The lack of elite talent within the organization.  Yes, there are some good prospects, but nothing that is categorized as being a cut above the rest.
2.  The fact that it is taking so long.  Other management teams have been able to remake their organizations is a timely fashion.  The leafs, for all their supposed management prowess have not.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Which teams specifically are you referring to?

 

[Corn Flake]

1.  The lack of elite talent within the organization.  Yes, there are some good prospects, but nothing that is categorized as being a cut above the rest.
2.  The fact that it is taking so long.  Other management teams have been able to remake their organizations is a timely fashion.  The leafs, for all their supposed management prowess have not.

1. I think Gardiner is very very close to an elite d-man in the making. I think Kadri still *might* be that guy, but its slim.  I do think we already have one elite guy in Kessel and it's more been about getting enough secondary parts around him to build a more consistent offense.  I think Phaneuf is far better than he gets credit for on most nights and who knows with Reimer if he bounces back.  But yes it would be nice to see maybe 1 more truly elite blue chip player in the system. But there are candidates who aren't all that obvious at the moment too.

2. Which teams were successful in rushing a rebuild?  Philli?  That's an easy one to debunk.  Other than them.. who?

 

[rdowdall]

Which teams specifically are you referring to?

Philadelphia, Ottawa, New Jersey, Washington.

Basically teams that do not miss the playoffs for 7 straight years.  So, maybe any team but Florida and possibly the Rangers.

 

[Corn Flake]

Which teams specifically are you referring to?

Philadelphia, Ottawa, New Jersey, Washington.

Basically teams that do not miss the playoffs for 7 straight years.  So, maybe any team but Florida and possibly the Rangers.

Philli, Ottawa and NJ weren't anywhere near in as bad shape as the Leafs were when Fletcher/Burke took over.  I really think you have to factor in that for the first 3 of those 7 years, the Leafs weren't rebuilding at all.  Its' only really been since Fletch took over that this team admitted to itself it had to rebuild. 

 

[rdowdall]

1.  The lack of elite talent within the organization.  Yes, there are some good prospects, but nothing that is categorized as being a cut above the rest.
2.  The fact that it is taking so long.  Other management teams have been able to remake their organizations is a timely fashion.  The leafs, for all their supposed management prowess have not.

1. I think Gardiner is very very close to an elite d-man in the making. I think Kadri still *might* be that guy, but its slim.  I do think we already have one elite guy in Kessel and it's more been about getting enough secondary parts around him to build a more consistent offense.  I think Phaneuf is far better than he gets credit for on most nights and who knows with Reimer if he bounces back.  But yes it would be nice to see maybe 1 more truly elite blue chip player in the system. But there are candidates who aren't all that obvious at the moment too.

2. Which teams were successful in rushing a rebuild?  Philli?  That's an easy one to debunk.  Other than them.. who?

1.  Gardiner has played 75 games at the NHL level.  I get that people are excited about what they saw, but he could just as easily be on the same career path as Brett Hedican.  Nothing against Brett Hedican, he was a good top 4 defenceman, but the Leafs need a franchise defenceman.  Someone who can challenge for Norris trophies, maybe even win one. 

2.  It has been 7 years.  People can throw out the whole "JFJ ruined this team" excuse if they want, but Burke has had 4 years.  This team appears to be no closer now than it did when he took over.  Most teams are on the cusp after that 4 years.  Lets look at the Oilers, a team that is in a similar position to the Leafs.  Which roster would you rather have?  Who do you think will make the playoffs first?  Which team to you think has a greater window to win the cup? And Edmonton has made the playoffs once since the lockout, the Leafs have not.  They have a brighter future than the Leafs at this point.  A management team like the one that the Leafs have should be able to do what Edmonton has done.

 

[rdowdall]

Which teams specifically are you referring to?

Philadelphia, Ottawa, New Jersey, Washington.

Basically teams that do not miss the playoffs for 7 straight years.  So, maybe any team but Florida and possibly the Rangers.

Philli, Ottawa and NJ weren't anywhere near in as bad shape as the Leafs were when Fletcher/Burke took over.  I really think you have to factor in that for the first 3 of those 7 years, the Leafs weren't rebuilding at all.  Its' only really been since Fletch took over that this team admitted to itself it had to rebuild.

That's part of my problem.  They never admitted that they had to rebuild.  The Kessel deal is proof to that point.  The Kessel deal was not a rebuild type of deal, no matter how you slice.  It was an impatient deal.

 

[Corn Flake]

1.  The lack of elite talent within the organization.  Yes, there are some good prospects, but nothing that is categorized as being a cut above the rest.
2.  The fact that it is taking so long.  Other management teams have been able to remake their organizations is a timely fashion.  The leafs, for all their supposed management prowess have not.

1. I think Gardiner is very very close to an elite d-man in the making. I think Kadri still *might* be that guy, but its slim.  I do think we already have one elite guy in Kessel and it's more been about getting enough secondary parts around him to build a more consistent offense.  I think Phaneuf is far better than he gets credit for on most nights and who knows with Reimer if he bounces back.  But yes it would be nice to see maybe 1 more truly elite blue chip player in the system. But there are candidates who aren't all that obvious at the moment too.

2. Which teams were successful in rushing a rebuild?  Philli?  That's an easy one to debunk.  Other than them.. who?

1.  Gardiner has played 75 games at the NHL level.  I get that people are excited about what they saw, but he could just as easily be on the same career path as Brett Hedican.  Nothing against Brett Hedican, he was a good top 4 defenceman, but the Leafs need a franchise defenceman.  Someone who can challenge for Norris trophies, maybe even win one. 

2.  It has been 7 years.  People can throw out the whole "JFJ ruined this team" excuse if they want, but Burke has had 4 years.  This team appears to be no closer now than it did when he took over.  Most teams are on the cusp after that 4 years.  Lets look at the Oilers, a team that is in a similar position to the Leafs.  Which roster would you rather have?  Who do you think will make the playoffs first?  Which team to you think has a greater windows to win the cup? And Edmonton has made the playoffs once since the lockout, the Leafs have not.  They have a brighter future than the Leafs at this point.  A management team like the one that the Leafs have should be able to do what Edmonton has done.

Well now I'm wishing I didn't wade into this discussion yet again.

Yes Gardiner might fail.  He might also NOT fail and become a really freaking good d-man.  He has all the tools and for a rookie showed about as much as you can expect in year 1. Not sure why we have to look at every player or prospect as the glass being almost empty all the time. 

Blaming Burke for the last 7 years is the same as blaming him for the last 45 years.  He has nothing to do with how things were run before he got here. 

Look.. I'm as frustrated and pissed off with losing as much as anyone else.  I have days I think about what it would be like to give up and follow some other team, but I have to look at this thing realistically and see from how far it had to come to get to where it needs to be.  And it was a looooong way.

 

[Corn Flake]

Which teams specifically are you referring to?

Philadelphia, Ottawa, New Jersey, Washington.

Basically teams that do not miss the playoffs for 7 straight years.  So, maybe any team but Florida and possibly the Rangers.

Philli, Ottawa and NJ weren't anywhere near in as bad shape as the Leafs were when Fletcher/Burke took over.  I really think you have to factor in that for the first 3 of those 7 years, the Leafs weren't rebuilding at all.  Its' only really been since Fletch took over that this team admitted to itself it had to rebuild.

That's part of my problem.  They never admitted that they had to rebuild.  The Kessel deal is proof to that point.  The Kessel deal was not a rebuild type of deal, no matter how you slice.  It was an impatient deal.

Actually I think what Burke said was "I don't believe in 3 (or 5.. whatever) rebuilds."  So he did believe in a rebuild, just a short one.  Before he took the job he was even talking about this prospective job he was in line for and was evaluating how long a rebuild it would be. 

Look.. I am NOT going to re-engage the Kessel debate. It needs to be taken out back and shot to death.  The fact is, after the first 6-9 months he was here it was clear they re-adjusted the plan to be less about using the UFA market and more emphasis on draft and development.

 

[bustaheims]

4 years is not a long time.

3 and a half years, really - and the first year and a half were largely spend stripping away the deadwood.

 

[Bullfrog]

Really enjoyed that interview, thanks.

x2

As much as people bash Burke et al, the hockey minds behind the management team really do know what they are doing.  They are professional to the tee.

At what point does having well spoken, intelligent hockey minds translate onto on ice success?  To be honest I'd rather have a group of guys who gave terrible interviews and sounded like complete baffoons as long as they could put a winning product on the ice.  Let's see some results with all this top tier management talent.

Man you've been negative lately. We're just complimenting the guy on being well-spoken. Can't we just leave it at that?

 

[rdowdall]

Yes Gardiner might fail.  He might also NOT fail and become a really freaking good d-man.  He has all the tools and for a rookie showed about as much as you can expect in year 1. Not sure why we have to look at every player or prospect as the glass being almost empty all the time. 

Because Leaf fans are notorious for looking at the cup as being 75% full.  How about before we get excited about something, we actually know that there is something to get excited about?

Blaming Burke for the last 7 years is the same as blaming him for the last 45 years.  He has nothing to do with how things were run before he got here. 

Fine, then lets only take the last four years.  Why does this team still seem to lack the pieces necessary to make the playoffs after 4 years of missing the playoffs?  They still lack a 1st line centre, a #1 defenceman, and a #1 goalie.

Look.. I'm as frustrated and pissed off with losing as much as anyone else.  I have days I think about what it would be like to give up and follow some other team, but I have to look at this thing realistically and see from how far it had to come to get to where it needs to be.  And it was a looooong way.

Okay, then it takes a long way to get there.  The problem is that after 4 years,  you still have to use words like "hope" and "maybe" and "if".  Other teams don't need to use those words when they are describing their prospects and their chances to make the playoffs.  Carolina doesn't have to use the word "maybe" when they describe their playoff chances.  They got significantly better in the offseason and a playoff spot, while not a guarantee, is expected.  Tampa Bay doesn't have to use the word "hope" when they talk about Steven Stamkos.

The Leafs are still viewed by many within the NHL as being a team that is a few years away from making the playoffs because they lack the #1's ( centre, defenceman, goalie).  It's been 4 years.  We should be closer than this.  If as a Leafs fan, you say "They should make the playoffs this year", you don't really have a whole lot of stable ground to make that argument.  If an Edmonton fan says "They should make the playoffs this year", the ground, while not rock solid, is a little firmer.

 

[Corn Flake]

Okay, then it takes a long way to get there.  The problem is that after 4 years,  you still have to use words like "hope" and "maybe" and "if".  Other teams don't need to use those words when they are describing their prospects and their chances to make the playoffs.  Carolina doesn't have to use the word "maybe" when they describe their playoff chances.  They got significantly better in the offseason and a playoff spot, while not a guarantee, is expected.  Tampa Bay doesn't have to use the word "hope" when they talk about Steven Stamkos.

And yet Tampa missed the playoffs even WITH Stamkos.  How mind bendingly mad would Leafs fans be if we had that team and still missed?  They blew a season of probably being a contender on not getting a goalie. 

Carolina got Staal because they had his brother.  Simple as that.  Plus, the difference between acquiring JVR and Jordan Staal... may not be as big of a gap as you think. 

The Leafs are still viewed by many within the NHL as being a team that is a few years away from making the playoffs because they lack the #1's ( centre, defenceman, goalie).  It's been 4 years.  We should be closer than this.  If as a Leafs fan, you say "They should make the playoffs this year", you don't really have a whole lot of stable ground to make that argument.  If an Edmonton fan says "They should make the playoffs this year", the ground, while not rock solid, is a little firmer.

Its one thing to just keep saying that, and then there's reality.  Look at how long LA took to rebuild.  Perfect example.

 

[Bender]

Really enjoyed that interview, thanks.

x2

As much as people bash Burke et al, the hockey minds behind the management team really do know what they are doing.  They are professional to the tee.

At what point does having well spoken, intelligent hockey minds translate onto on ice success?  To be honest I'd rather have a group of guys who gave terrible interviews and sounded like complete baffoons as long as they could put a winning product on the ice.  Let's see some results with all this top tier management talent.

Man you've been negative lately. We're just complimenting the guy on being well-spoken. Can't we just leave it at that?

Especially since the example he presented was a false dichotomy. It simply doesn't make sense. Usually people who sound like buffoons probably are.