Canadiens @ Leafs - May 31st, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590

[bustaheims]

At the end of the day our best players still need to be our best players... and they just weren't, so far from putting all the blame on Keefe here. But he didn't have a great series either, which is super unfortunate because he has done good stuff here.

Yeah. While he definitely made some mistakes, I don't think Keefe was necessarily outcoached, as much as he was let down by the players. They couldn't adjust to the desperation of the Habs in the final 3 games. There's absolutely no reason for this series to have gone to 7 games. The giveaways in OT are unforgiveable. Marner's giveaway before the 1st Habs goal last night was equally bad, especially considering his disappearing act in the series (and, really, outside of one series against Boston, in the postseason throughout his career). Matthews needed to fight harder to create space for himself (though, I won't be shocked if we find out his wrist is injured again - his shot didn't seem to have the same weight to it). Of the team's best forwards, only Nylander showed he has what it takes to win in the playoffs this round.

 

[rdowdall]

At the end of the day our best players still need to be our best players... and they just weren't, so far from putting all the blame on Keefe here. But he didn't have a great series either, which is super unfortunate because he has done good stuff here.

Yeah. While he definitely made some mistakes, I don't think Keefe was necessarily outcoached, as much as he was let down by the players. They couldn't adjust to the desperation of the Habs in the final 3 games. There's absolutely no reason for this series to have gone to 7 games. The giveaways in OT are unforgiveable. Marner's giveaway before the 1st Habs goal last night was equally bad, especially considering his disappearing act in the series (and, really, outside of one series against Boston, in the postseason throughout his career). Matthews needed to fight harder to create space for himself (though, I won't be shocked if we find out his wrist is injured again - his shot didn't seem to have the same weight to it). Of the team's best forwards, only Nylander showed he has what it takes to win in the playoffs this round.

Nylander is older though, so maybe he is just ahead of the curve a bit.  What happens if all three of them play as Nylander did in this series next year in the playoffs?  That's going to be a fun team to watch. 

 

[Guilt Trip]

I'll give Keefe credit for finally playing Nylander more in Game 7.  Not sure why he wasn't getting that TOI bump earlier in the series.

Someone posted it on social media but Nylander's lack of ice time compared to the other big two is that his shifts were at least 10 seconds shorter. They actually played a similar amount of shifts but I don't know if it was over the whole series. Personally I would have played Nylander a lot more with Matthews over the past 3 games and definitely used him on PP1.
Oh well, it is what it is. It was a fun season that ended badly. Life goes on.

 

[bustaheims]

Nylander is older though, so maybe he is just ahead of the curve a bit.  What happens if all three of them play as Nylander did in this series next year in the playoffs?  That's going to be a fun team to watch.

That's the problem - we've never seen more than 1 of them really going in a series. They've each had one really good round, but never 2 or all 3 them at once.

 

[L K]

8. For anyone who thinks Campbell struggled in the last few games, Freddy should have started game 4. This isn't some hindsight belief, I said a few times I thought he would get game 4 and I'm hardly his biggest supporter. It would have been completely reasonable for Keefe to start him there and if he played well he would have been an option for game 6 or 7

Campbell certainly gave up a few questionable goals down the stretch but even a healthy Andersen was prone to giving up goals like that in leverage situations.  That being said, Jack certainly was not at his best.  He was phenomenal in the first period of Game 6 but some of those goals where he was down on the ice (I don't fully fault him for the one that Keefe ended up challenging because I think he knew the puck was at his pad and he didn't have a way to get his glove over to it without lifting his leg risking a chance for the puck to go in the net).

4GP 4 goals against, 1.01 GAA .965 SV%  (Ended with shutout on back-half of B2B)
3GP 9 goals against, 2.13 GAA .891 SV%

 

[rdowdall]

Nylander is older though, so maybe he is just ahead of the curve a bit.  What happens if all three of them play as Nylander did in this series next year in the playoffs?  That's going to be a fun team to watch.

That's the problem - we've never seen more than 1 of them really going in a series. They've each had one really good round, but never 2 or all 3 them at once.

So the question is, is it a growth thing, or is it a flaw in the players makeup that is causing that.

 

[L K]

Nylander is older though, so maybe he is just ahead of the curve a bit.  What happens if all three of them play as Nylander did in this series next year in the playoffs?  That's going to be a fun team to watch.

That's the problem - we've never seen more than 1 of them really going in a series. They've each had one really good round, but never 2 or all 3 them at once.

So the question is, is it a growth thing, or is it a flaw in the players makeup that is causing that.

I feel like we rarely saw everyone firing on all cylinders even during the regular season.  Matthews/Marner would get hot and Tavares would be cold.  Then Tavares would get hot and Matthews/Marner would quiet down a bit.  We rarely seemed to get those big stretches where our top 6 dominated the game for 40+ minutes.

That being said, a guy like MacKinnon didn't win his first playoff series until his 6th season so who knows.  Maybe next year they come back inspired.  This is probably the first time they lost where not only did they lose badly but the truly should have won the series.  They weren't just the better advanced stats team but they were also the better team on paper.  The had the better record.  The better players.  Everything says they should have won. 

Then again, we did this to Ottawa year over year and something was just wrong with Ottawa's ability to overcome the Leafs forecheck...and Lalime's goaltending.

 

[Guilt Trip]

8. For anyone who thinks Campbell struggled in the last few games, Freddy should have started game 4. This isn't some hindsight belief, I said a few times I thought he would get game 4 and I'm hardly his biggest supporter. It would have been completely reasonable for Keefe to start him there and if he played well he would have been an option for game 6 or 7

Campbell certainly gave up a few questionable goals down the stretch but even a healthy Andersen was prone to giving up goals like that in leverage situations.  That being said, Jack certainly was not at his best.  He was phenomenal in the first period of Game 6 but some of those goals where he was down on the ice (I don't fully fault him for the one that Keefe ended up challenging because I think he knew the puck was at his pad and he didn't have a way to get his glove over to it without lifting his leg risking a chance for the puck to go in the net).

4GP 4 goals against, 1.01 GAA .965 SV%  (Ended with shutout on back-half of B2B)
3GP 9 goals against, 2.13 GAA .891 SV%

Jack played great but let in 6 very stoppable goals.
Gm1 winning goal. Gm2 Suzuki goal. Gm 5 2nd and 3rd goals(1st wasn't ideal either. Could have used a save there as he was back in the net). Gm6 2nd goal. Gm 7 1st goal, which was the absolute worst one of the series for him. You can't have that when the other guy only let in 1 bad goal.
So he was very good but not good enough much like last year and Freddie. Just not good enough.It will be interesting to see where they go with the goalies. Do they sign Rittich for cheap? Can they get Freddie cheap? Do they look UFAs like Ullmark, Driedger, Maranz?

 

[rdowdall]

Nylander is older though, so maybe he is just ahead of the curve a bit.  What happens if all three of them play as Nylander did in this series next year in the playoffs?  That's going to be a fun team to watch.

That's the problem - we've never seen more than 1 of them really going in a series. They've each had one really good round, but never 2 or all 3 them at once.

So the question is, is it a growth thing, or is it a flaw in the players makeup that is causing that.

I feel like we rarely saw everyone firing on all cylinders even during the regular season.  Matthews/Marner would get hot and Tavares would be cold.  Then Tavares would get hot and Matthews/Marner would quiet down a bit.  We rarely seemed to get those big stretches where our top 6 dominated the game for 40+ minutes.

That being said, a guy like MacKinnon didn't win his first playoff series until his 6th season so who knows.  Maybe next year they come back inspired.  This is probably the first time they lost where not only did they lose badly but the truly should have won the series.  They weren't just the better advanced stats team but they were also the better team on paper.  The had the better record.  The better players.  Everything says they should have won. 

Then again, we did this to Ottawa year over year and something was just wrong with Ottawa's ability to overcome the Leafs forecheck...and Lalime's goaltending.

But Ottawa did eventually breakthrough, so did they learn and build, or did they just get lucky because they stopped having to face the Leafs in the playoffs?

I look at guys like Yzerman and Lemieux.  It took them a while.  Lemieux's Penguins didn't even make the playoffs for 5 of his first 6 years.  Yzerman's Red Wings were a lot like the Leafs, high expectations, but more often than not, couldn't get out of the first round.  The talent is on this team.  They just have to figure out what goes wrong in the playoffs.

We've all said it for years.  "I wish this team had talent."  Now they do.  So the next step is to give that talent what they need to compete in the playoffs.  Is it big power wingers for the first two lines?  Is it a checking line?  Is it a bigger defence?  Not sure, that's up to the team to figure out.  We do know for certain though that they have not found it yet, and what they have tried so far, ahs not worked.   

 

[Bender]

8. For anyone who thinks Campbell struggled in the last few games, Freddy should have started game 4. This isn't some hindsight belief, I said a few times I thought he would get game 4 and I'm hardly his biggest supporter. It would have been completely reasonable for Keefe to start him there and if he played well he would have been an option for game 6 or 7

Campbell certainly gave up a few questionable goals down the stretch but even a healthy Andersen was prone to giving up goals like that in leverage situations.  That being said, Jack certainly was not at his best.  He was phenomenal in the first period of Game 6 but some of those goals where he was down on the ice (I don't fully fault him for the one that Keefe ended up challenging because I think he knew the puck was at his pad and he didn't have a way to get his glove over to it without lifting his leg risking a chance for the puck to go in the net).

4GP 4 goals against, 1.01 GAA .965 SV%  (Ended with shutout on back-half of B2B)
3GP 9 goals against, 2.13 GAA .891 SV%

Jack played great but let in 6 very stoppable goals.
Gm1 winning goal. Gm2 Suzuki goal. Gm 5 2nd and 3rd goals(1st wasn't ideal either. Could have used a save there as he was back in the net). Gm6 2nd goal. Gm 7 1st goal, which was the absolute worst one of the series for him. You can't have that when the other guy only let in 1 bad goal.
So he was very good but not good enough much like last year and Freddie. Just not good enough.It will be interesting to see where they go with the goalies. Do they sign Rittich for cheap? Can they get Freddie cheap? Do they look UFAs like Ullmark, Driedger, Maranz?

He posted a .932. Sorry but if you can't win with that you're not getting scoring. Goaltending was the least of their problems.

 

[rdowdall]

8. For anyone who thinks Campbell struggled in the last few games, Freddy should have started game 4. This isn't some hindsight belief, I said a few times I thought he would get game 4 and I'm hardly his biggest supporter. It would have been completely reasonable for Keefe to start him there and if he played well he would have been an option for game 6 or 7

Campbell certainly gave up a few questionable goals down the stretch but even a healthy Andersen was prone to giving up goals like that in leverage situations.  That being said, Jack certainly was not at his best.  He was phenomenal in the first period of Game 6 but some of those goals where he was down on the ice (I don't fully fault him for the one that Keefe ended up challenging because I think he knew the puck was at his pad and he didn't have a way to get his glove over to it without lifting his leg risking a chance for the puck to go in the net).

4GP 4 goals against, 1.01 GAA .965 SV%  (Ended with shutout on back-half of B2B)
3GP 9 goals against, 2.13 GAA .891 SV%

Jack played great but let in 6 very stoppable goals.
Gm1 winning goal. Gm2 Suzuki goal. Gm 5 2nd and 3rd goals(1st wasn't ideal either. Could have used a save there as he was back in the net). Gm6 2nd goal. Gm 7 1st goal, which was the absolute worst one of the series for him. You can't have that when the other guy only let in 1 bad goal.
So he was very good but not good enough much like last year and Freddie. Just not good enough.It will be interesting to see where they go with the goalies. Do they sign Rittich for cheap? Can they get Freddie cheap? Do they look UFAs like Ullmark, Driedger, Maranz?

He posted a .932. Sorry but if you can't win with that you're not getting scoring. Goaltending was the least of their problems.

Yeah, I think all goalies give up bad goals in the playoffs.  The team has to just forget about it and go get it back.  Expecting your goalie to play perfect as a plan for your success isn't sustainable.

One comment that has stuck with me from both Brendan Gallagher and Brad Marchand is they both said the team believed that they were going to win.  I think it's apparent that the Leafs don't have that belief yet, or that you can shake their belief fairly easily.  They need some players on their team that can just go about their business even when things aren't going according to plan.

After that first goal was scored last night, the team just unraveled, and it took them about half a period to get back into the mindset where they could start putting pressure on the Habs again.  That's too long. You need to wash that goal away and come out and respond the next shift.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Nylander is older though, so maybe he is just ahead of the curve a bit.  What happens if all three of them play as Nylander did in this series next year in the playoffs?  That's going to be a fun team to watch.

That's the problem - we've never seen more than 1 of them really going in a series. They've each had one really good round, but never 2 or all 3 them at once.

So the question is, is it a growth thing, or is it a flaw in the players makeup that is causing that.

I don't see it as a flaw. Matthews played harder this season and playoffs then he ever has before. he lead the team in hits, blocked shots(Forwards), shots, takeaways, least amount of giveaways. He took almost 100 more faceoffs then Kerfoot and was 55%. 66% in Dzone. I've said it many times during this series, if Marner and Hyman were a threat to score the line would be almost impossible to check.
MacKinnon is a great player but what makes him even more dangerous is that he also plays with guys that can score. Marchand, Bergeron and Pasta all can score. You can't just focus on 1 guy like you can with Matthews. I really hope a kid like Robertson or whoever that has a shot can play with them next season. I've never ever liked Hyman on that line. He's a third line player that benefits from playing with high skill. Hyman can't do much on his own.

 

[bustaheims]

We've all said it for years.  "I wish this team had talent."  Now they do.  So the next step is to give that talent what they need to compete in the playoffs.  Is it big power wingers for the first two lines?  Is it a checking line?  Is it a bigger defence?  Not sure, that's up to the team to figure out.  We do know for certain though that they have not found it yet, and what they have tried so far, ahs not worked. 

I don't think it's a talent issue, nor do I think adding any specific types of players to the roster is what's needed. Right now, it feels like more of a psychological issue. The team probably needs to get away from the "adding experience around the edges" approach and focus more on complimenting the existing talent. Other than that, maybe invest heavily in the sports psychology side of things?

 

[rdowdall]

Nylander is older though, so maybe he is just ahead of the curve a bit.  What happens if all three of them play as Nylander did in this series next year in the playoffs?  That's going to be a fun team to watch.

That's the problem - we've never seen more than 1 of them really going in a series. They've each had one really good round, but never 2 or all 3 them at once.

So the question is, is it a growth thing, or is it a flaw in the players makeup that is causing that.

I don't see it as a flaw. Matthews played harder this season and playoffs then he ever has before. he lead the team in hits, blocked shots(Forwards), shots, takeaways, least amount of giveaways. He took almost 100 more faceoffs then Kerfoot and was 55%. 66% in Dzone. I've said it many times during this series, if Marner and Hyman were a threat to score the line would be almost impossible to check.
MacKinnon is a great player but what makes him even more dangerous is that he also plays with guys that can score. Marchand, Bergeron and Pasta all can score. You can't just focus on 1 guy like you can with Matthews. I really hope a kid like Robertson or whoever that has a shot can play with them next season. I've never ever liked Hyman on that line. He's a third line player that benefits from playing with high skill. Hyman can't do much on his own.

I think Hyman is the type of player you need on that line.  You need that grinder type that is going to get in on the forecheck and get the puck.  An argument can be made that you need a better version of Hyman for that line, but don't think that Hyman is at fault here.  I imagine he was rushed back, and that might be part of his problems in the playoffs.  Or it may be that he tries to do to much, like Marner and Matthews, in the playoffs, rather than sticking to the game that got them there in the first place. 

Also, it could be that they are thinking too much in the playoffs.  Something that stuck out in the post that Herman shared about the comparison between the Leafs and Avalanche was the reaction time of McKinnon versus Marner.  When Marner is on his game, he is reading and reacting at a higher pace than a majority of NHL players.  He wasn't doing that in the playoffs.  I think when you see that happens, it's because a player is thinking about what they want to do, rather than just going and doing it. 

However, an upgrade on that wing, as long as it provides that puck retrieval, greasy game would be fine, and you could move Hyman to the third line, which was really effective during the Leafs most productive stretch this year.

 

[rdowdall]

We've all said it for years.  "I wish this team had talent."  Now they do.  So the next step is to give that talent what they need to compete in the playoffs.  Is it big power wingers for the first two lines?  Is it a checking line?  Is it a bigger defence?  Not sure, that's up to the team to figure out.  We do know for certain though that they have not found it yet, and what they have tried so far, ahs not worked. 

I don't think it's a talent issue, nor do I think adding any specific types of players to the roster is what's needed. Right now, it feels like more of a psychological issue. The team probably needs to get away from the "adding experience around the edges" approach and focus more on complimenting the existing talent. Other than that, maybe invest heavily in the sports psychology side of things?

Yeah, and that would tie into the "believe that you are going to win" narrative as well.  There was an article when Foligno came in about how he was being anointed the savior coming into Toronto because he didn't have the stench of past playoff losses on him.  It was interesting because the article pointed out that the Leafs can't let themselves fall into this mindset because the saviors of this team are Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Tavares.  This team is only going to go as far as those guys take it, so if you can't get them over the hump, then the team isn't going anywhere, regardless of who you bring in. 

 

[Guilt Trip]

Too many plays died on Hyman's stick. It was a big issue. He also wasn't getting the puck. He had 1 takeaway  the whole series. He wasn't good. It's the same thing with the PP..Marner, Rielly aren't a threat to score..Hyman/Joe in front isn't either so let's cheat towards Matthews and we're gold..this isn't rocket science...yes you need a quarterback but everyone has to be a threat to shoot.

 

[rdowdall]

Too many plays died on Hyman's stick. It was a big issue. He also wasn't getting the puck. He had 1 takeaway  the whole series. He wasn't good. It's the same thing with the PP..Marner, Rielly aren't a threat to score..Hyman/Joe in front isn't either so let's cheat towards Matthews and we're gold..this isn't rocket science...yes you need a quarterback but everyone has to be a threat to shoot.

But the corollary to that is that, other than the powerplay issues, things worked during the regular season.  During the regular season, Hyman was quite effective on the Matthews line for large chunks of it.  In fact, Hyman was the guy they were moving around to get a line going.  So it's not like he can't do the job 5 on 5 on that type of line.  It's that he couldn't get it done in the playoffs, and other than Nylander, there were a lot of guys who couldn't get it done offensively in the playoffs.

 

[herman]

Just going by what's being intimated by people who have the access to know, coaching staff was working within the constraint of certain roles/responsibilities promised to certain players, and those players for whatever reason, didn't live up to their end of the bargain. Like an extreme pendulum swing away from the previous coach (balanced minutes vs stacked, rush vs possession).

Perfectly normal to collaborate with your players (stars, especially) to build something together that they feel invested in, but it needs to come with accountability, and those players have to be willing to let other options onto the table when the situation calls for it. Otherwise you lose the room with the other players that are a) working hard(er) within those confines, and b) putting up the results.

Success is going to come with finding that balance and adapting appropriately to what's happening in front of you. It's very easy to defend against a single strategy, and even easier to throw a wet blanket on one line of super stars with sheer gruntwork. Mix up the short and long plays, trying to solve problems the same way every time with no difference in result is insanity.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Too many plays died on Hyman's stick. It was a big issue. He also wasn't getting the puck. He had 1 takeaway  the whole series. He wasn't good. It's the same thing with the PP..Marner, Rielly aren't a threat to score..Hyman/Joe in front isn't either so let's cheat towards Matthews and we're gold..this isn't rocket science...yes you need a quarterback but everyone has to be a threat to shoot.

But the corollary to that is that, other than the powerplay issues, things worked during the regular season.  During the regular season, Hyman was quite effective on the Matthews line for large chunks of it.  In fact, Hyman was the guy they were moving around to get a line going.  So it's not like he can't do the job 5 on 5 on that type of line.  It's that he couldn't get it done in the playoffs, and other than Nylander, there were a lot of guys who couldn't get it done offensively in the playoffs.

Anybody and everybody worked with M&M during the regular season. It even worked with Thornton. Don't get me wrong here. Hyman works extremely hard but he's not talented enough to be on the top line. He just isn't and this is the second playoffs in a row he's been subpar when up against the tougher defence. Leafs will have to tread lightly when it comes to his salary for next year. I think he's a good player but not at the dollars some were suggesting.

 

[rdowdall]

Too many plays died on Hyman's stick. It was a big issue. He also wasn't getting the puck. He had 1 takeaway  the whole series. He wasn't good. It's the same thing with the PP..Marner, Rielly aren't a threat to score..Hyman/Joe in front isn't either so let's cheat towards Matthews and we're gold..this isn't rocket science...yes you need a quarterback but everyone has to be a threat to shoot.

But the corollary to that is that, other than the powerplay issues, things worked during the regular season.  During the regular season, Hyman was quite effective on the Matthews line for large chunks of it.  In fact, Hyman was the guy they were moving around to get a line going.  So it's not like he can't do the job 5 on 5 on that type of line.  It's that he couldn't get it done in the playoffs, and other than Nylander, there were a lot of guys who couldn't get it done offensively in the playoffs.

Anybody and everybody worked with M&M during the regular season. It even worked with Thornton. Don't get me wrong here. Hyman works extremely hard but he's not talented enough to be on the top line. He just isn't and this is the second playoffs in a row he's been subpar when up against the tougher defence. Leafs will have to tread lightly when it comes to his salary for next year. I think he's a good player but not at the dollars some were suggesting.

I guess my point is that if the line works during the regular season, then it should work in the playoffs as well.  The playoffs don't require you to suddenly have to have more talent.  I think the big thing that the playoffs require you to have as an athlete is the ability to check your emotions so that the stage doesn't get the better of you.