Cody Franson

[bustaheims]

for Gordie Howe hattricks he will need a little muscle on the biceps and elbows.

I'm quite happy for Nylander to finish he career with zero "Gordie Howe hat tricks."

 

[Redleaf]

Ok, so let me get this straight. Leaf management has given Franson lots of rope over the years, allowed him to play through many glaring errors and have helped him overcome an extensive learning curve along the way.

He is only now, finally playing the best hockey of his career, and some fans here would consider moving him out in order to start that whole process again with another rookie?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Ok, so let me get this straight. Leaf management has given Franson lots of rope over the years, allowed him to play through many glaring errors and have helped him overcome an extensive learning curve along the way.

He is only now, finally playing the best hockey of his career, and some fans here would consider moving him out in order to start that whole process again with another rookie?

Just replace everything you wrote with the actual reason people would consider moving him out and then the answer is yes.

 

[freer]

for Gordie Howe hattricks he will need a little muscle on the biceps and elbows.

I'm quite happy for Nylander to finish he career with zero "Gordie Howe hat tricks."

I never said anything about him fighting. Added muscle is needed to take clean body checks and wear and tear on the body. 175-180 for him would be good. Same with C. Brown on the Marlies.

 

[bustaheims]

I never said anything about him fighting. Added muscle is needed to take clean body checks and wear and tear on the body. 175-180 for him would be good. Same with C. Brown on the Marlies.

He's officially listed at 169. What you've suggested in terms of what kind of weight he needs to add would put him in the 185-190 range. He's already basically the same size as someone like Claude Giroux. He doesn't need to really add any weight to be successful. Strength, maybe, but that doesn't have to come with size.

 

[ZBBM]

A good 2 months and all of a sudden he's the most valuable d-man on the planet?  Right.

Typical rollercoaster "assessment" from the media (although I think Mirtle is generally good).  Franson is at best an OK defender and he skates like Jason Allison (and Allison was obsolete in an era when Jason Allisons could thrive in a clutch and grab league).  He's a good PP guy.  That's about it.

 

[bustaheims]

Ok, so let me get this straight. Leaf management has given Franson lots of rope over the years, allowed him to play through many glaring errors and have helped him overcome an extensive learning curve along the way.

He is only now, finally playing the best hockey of his career, and some fans here would consider moving him out in order to start that whole process again with another rookie?

It's nowhere near as ridiculous as you make it sound. Considering the Leafs' cap situation and everything else, when looking at Franson and the type of contract that's likely required to retain him, the team really needs to ask itself if he can be a significant piece of a Cup contending team in Toronto in the next 3 seasons or so. I'd say anyone but the most optimistic of fans would say that's extremely unlikely - not necessarily because of Franson, but more because the Leafs are unlikely to be serious Cup contenders in that time frame.

So, going from there, the team needs to figure out whether Franson has more value to them as a trade piece at the deadline or as a fairly expensive part of the roster going forward. That's not an easy question to answer and there are very valid arguments for both sides. Also, given that time frame, it's certainly possible that one of the prospects people are suggesting replacing Franson with could emerge as being as valuable as him when the time comes for the Leafs to really be able to take the next step and be a serious Cup contender.

With the value placed around the league on right-handed defencemen who can play the puck well, the potential return for Franson at the deadline could be significant, and, potentially, could end up in the Leafs having a player that's more valuable than Franson will be in the future. While I'm not necessarily saying the Leafs should absolutely trade him, at the very least, I'd suggest they don't sign him to a new contract until their position entering the trade deadline is clear.

 

[freer]

I never said anything about him fighting. Added muscle is needed to take clean body checks and wear and tear on the body. 175-180 for him would be good. Same with C. Brown on the Marlies.

He's officially listed at 169. What you've suggested in terms of what kind of weight he needs to add would put him in the 185-190 range. He's already basically the same size as someone like Claude Giroux. He doesn't need to really add any weight to be successful. Strength, maybe, but that doesn't have to come with size.

I cry BS, there is no way Claude Giroux is 172 lbs. St Louis is heavier that that 5 inches shorter

 

[bustaheims]

I cry BS, there is no way Claude Giroux is 172 lbs. St Louis is heavier that that 5 inches shorter

That's what he's officially listed at. And, honestly, it's probably close to the truth. Also, St Louis is only 3 inches shorter, listed at 180 and, honestly, being that he's built like a fire hydrant whereas Giroux is not, it's probably pretty close to being accurate.

 

[herman]

I saw this article about Franson a few weeks ago from SI:

What makes Franson so uniquely tough to peg is his inability to fit the existing mold of "offensive defenseman." Stat acolytes have come to the defense of plenty of speedy, highly skilled blue liners?e.g. Mike Green, Ryan Ellis, Lubomir Visnovsky?by arguing that their puck-moving abilities enable possession, hockey's most precious commodity, and thus outweigh any other shortcomings. But Franson is not a puck mover. He's not a particularly good skater and, according to data from Corey Sznajder's All Three Zones Project, he loves to dump-and-chase. (His 10% controlled offensive zone-entry rate was the worst among Maple Leafs skaters who played at least 250 minutes last season).

[...]

With all this dissonance in mind, I watched the October 18 Maple Leafs?Red Wings game and accidentally picked a great example of what Franson brings to the rink. [...] In this game, Franson (No. 4) led Toronto with a massive +16 Corsi rating. But the contest (spoiler alert!) ended in overtime thanks, in part, to his less than stellar defensive play against Henrik Zetterberg, who scored the winner in Detroit's 1-0 win. The night proved to be the whole Franson debate in microcosm.

And if you really want to unpack that last play as emblematic, there is something about it that is typically Franson. Two things he is not are tenacious and quick. He lacks both aggressiveness and the ability to close gaps on forwards. He's not a pylon at the level of 38-year-old Hal Gill, but there is a little of that fixed position in his game. He relies on his stick way more than you'd like from a 27-year-old, physical backline prototype.

[...]

What really stands out while watching Franson, though, is his defense of the other team's blueline. His priority on offense seems to not be joining the cycle but keeping the puck deep in the zone and away from the blueline. His aforementioned quick wrist shot allows him to do that better than most. When he begins to pinch in the offensive zone, he's already halfway through the mechanics of his shot.

[...]

Back to Nashville for a moment. While coming up on Shea Weber's team, sharing Shea Weber's hometown, and possessing Shea Weber's size and penchant for shooting, Franson was widely expected to become a Shea Weber. And while he turned out to be very different, that's not all bad. Weber's biggest flaw as a player is the efficiency (or lack thereof) of his first pass, something that Franson does very well.

The reason why Franson fails the eye test for so many people is due to a lack of comparable players. (No wonder his salary arbitration case last July was such a difficult proposition. He and the Leafs avoided going to the mat by striking a last-minute one-year deal worth $3.3 million after Franson has sought $4.2 million.) There's just something spring-loaded about his game in that his role on the ice resembles a bumper in a pinball machine: He's a largely stationary object that will immediately propel a loose puck in the opposite direction with surprising force and accuracy.

When you think of Franson as someone who is solely concerned with propelling the puck in one direction, his role as a puck-mover and a dump-and-chase guy are reconciled. A defenseman who keeps the puck moving forward is hugely valuable, even if he isn't carrying it himself.

Franson may not be the defenseman you want in a one-on-one against Evgeni Malkin during the closing seconds of a tied game, but as any pinball player will tell you, a bumper can be a lifesaver.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I never said anything about him fighting. Added muscle is needed to take clean body checks and wear and tear on the body. 175-180 for him would be good. Same with C. Brown on the Marlies.

He's officially listed at 169. What you've suggested in terms of what kind of weight he needs to add would put him in the 185-190 range. He's already basically the same size as someone like Claude Giroux. He doesn't need to really add any weight to be successful. Strength, maybe, but that doesn't have to come with size.

In the summer Dave Morrison said that Nylander was 5'11, 183lbs.

 

[bustaheims]

In the summer Dave Morrison said that Nylander was 5'11, 183lbs.

He's probably somewhere in between that and what he's officially listed as, but, either way, size is not an issue for him.

 

[Redleaf]

Ok, so let me get this straight. Leaf management has given Franson lots of rope over the years, allowed him to play through many glaring errors and have helped him overcome an extensive learning curve along the way.

He is only now, finally playing the best hockey of his career, and some fans here would consider moving him out in order to start that whole process again with another rookie?

Just replace everything you wrote with the actual reason people would consider moving him out and then the answer is yes.

Only if you replace all of your asinine comments with thoughtful ones.

Like I said earlier, I think this will sort itself out. If the team nosedives again, Franson is probably gone. If he plays the role of steady Eddie on the blueline, like he has so far this year, and they make it to the playoffs, he remains a Leaf.

Beyond that, I don't see any reason to consider even discussing a move. He's providing exactly what the Leafs need more of, Stability on the blueline.

I mean, it seems like some of you guys want change for the sake of change. Let the season play out and deal with the situation when we get to that point.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

He's probably somewhere in between that and what he's officially listed as, but, either way, size is not an issue for him.

The combine had him at 5'11 too, so the height is almost definitely right. Maybe Morrison tacked on a few pounds though to his estimate. The guy is definitely in good shape though. It would feel weird to post pictures of shirtless 17-year olds here but there's a couple out there of him from the combine and he definitely works out.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

He's probably somewhere in between that and what he's officially listed as, but, either way, size is not an issue for him.

The combine had him at 5'11 too, so the height is almost definitely right. Maybe Morrison tacked on a few pounds though to his estimate. The guy is definitely in good shape though. It would feel weird to post pictures of shirtless 17-year olds here but there's a couple out there of him from the combine and he definitely works out.

And besides, Patrick Kane is listed as 5'11", 177 lbs.  If you've got the skill you can be successful without having to bulk up.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Ok, so let me get this straight. Leaf management has given Franson lots of rope over the years, allowed him to play through many glaring errors and have helped him overcome an extensive learning curve along the way.

He is only now, finally playing the best hockey of his career, and some fans here would consider moving him out in order to start that whole process again with another rookie?

It's nowhere near as ridiculous as you make it sound. Considering the Leafs' cap situation and everything else, when looking at Franson and the type of contract that's likely required to retain him, the team really needs to ask itself if he can be a significant piece of a Cup contending team in Toronto in the next 3 seasons or so. I'd say anyone but the most optimistic of fans would say that's extremely unlikely - not necessarily because of Franson, but more because the Leafs are unlikely to be serious Cup contenders in that time frame.

So, going from there, the team needs to figure out whether Franson has more value to them as a trade piece at the deadline or as a fairly expensive part of the roster going forward. That's not an easy question to answer and there are very valid arguments for both sides. Also, given that time frame, it's certainly possible that one of the prospects people are suggesting replacing Franson with could emerge as being as valuable as him when the time comes for the Leafs to really be able to take the next step and be a serious Cup contender.

With the value placed around the league on right-handed defencemen who can play the puck well, the potential return for Franson at the deadline could be significant, and, potentially, could end up in the Leafs having a player that's more valuable than Franson will be in the future. While I'm not necessarily saying the Leafs should absolutely trade him, at the very least, I'd suggest they don't sign him to a new contract until their position entering the trade deadline is clear.

And that's without even mentioning the possibility that they can't re-sign him because he's going to want more than they can give him (without making some other moves) or because he wants to test free agency.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

He's probably somewhere in between that and what he's officially listed as, but, either way, size is not an issue for him.

The combine had him at 5'11 too, so the height is almost definitely right. Maybe Morrison tacked on a few pounds though to his estimate. The guy is definitely in good shape though. It would feel weird to post pictures of shirtless 17-year olds here but there's a couple out there of him from the combine and he definitely works out.

And besides, Patrick Kane is listed as 5'11", 177 lbs.  If you've got the skill you can be successful without having to bulk up.

Sorry for all who disagree here. There is a huge difference between Kane who has played with men that hit and Nylander who plays in a European league where body contact is a swear word and is never seen.

When Kane came into the league he had not "played with men that hit" to say nothing about your vast mis-representation of European hockey.

 

[Andy007]

He's probably somewhere in between that and what he's officially listed as, but, either way, size is not an issue for him.

The combine had him at 5'11 too, so the height is almost definitely right. Maybe Morrison tacked on a few pounds though to his estimate. The guy is definitely in good shape though. It would feel weird to post pictures of shirtless 17-year olds here but there's a couple out there of him from the combine and he definitely works out.

And besides, Patrick Kane is listed as 5'11", 177 lbs.  If you've got the skill you can be successful without having to bulk up.

Sorry for all who disagree here. There is a huge difference between Kane who has played with men that hit and Nylander who plays in a European league where body contact is a swear word and is never seen.

When Kane came into the league he had not "played with men that hit" to say nothing about your vast mis-representation of European hockey.

He played in the OHL where contact is very prevalent. I also watch all hockey including KHL and Swedish league, where there is very little phyical contact.

OHL had "men" who could hit? What are you talking about? In Sweden he plays with actual adults, not OHL kids.

Anyway your assessment seems to be based on a few pre-season games Nylander played as barely an 18 yr old. That's silly. 

 

[Andy007]

He's probably somewhere in between that and what he's officially listed as, but, either way, size is not an issue for him.

The combine had him at 5'11 too, so the height is almost definitely right. Maybe Morrison tacked on a few pounds though to his estimate. The guy is definitely in good shape though. It would feel weird to post pictures of shirtless 17-year olds here but there's a couple out there of him from the combine and he definitely works out.

And besides, Patrick Kane is listed as 5'11", 177 lbs.  If you've got the skill you can be successful without having to bulk up.

Sorry for all who disagree here. There is a huge difference between Kane who has played with men that hit and Nylander who plays in a European league where body contact is a swear word and is never seen.

When Kane came into the league he had not "played with men that hit" to say nothing about your vast mis-representation of European hockey.

He played in the OHL where contact is very prevalent. I also watch all hockey including KHL and Swedish league, where there is very little phyical contact.

OHL had "men" who could hit? What are you talking about? In Sweden he plays with actual adults, not OHL kids.

Anyway your assessment seems to be based on a few pre-season games Nylander played as barely an 18 yr old. That's silly.

Opinions; We all got them, but you dont have to agree,

Well if my opinion was that Colton Orr was a great sniper or Tomas Kaberle didn't know how to skate, well that certainly can be an opinion, it's just full of crap.

 

[Arn]

Nylander who plays in a European league where body contact is a swear word and is never seen.

One of the most inherently wrong comments I have ever seen on this forum. A lack of fighting (although it does still happen on occasion) is not a lack of body contact or checking.