Cody Franson

[freer]

Nylander who plays in a European league where body contact is a swear word and is never seen.

One of the most inherently wrong comments I have ever seen on this forum. A lack of fighting (although it does still happen on occasion) is not a lack of body contact or checking.

Out of the 30 games I watched last year alone, there was maybe 5 or 6 body checks in each game. Like I said earlier this only my opinion. If find European hockey soft.

 

[Kin]

Out of the 30 games I watched last year alone, there was maybe 5 or 6 body checks in each game. Like I said earlier this only my opinion. If find European hockey soft.

Why on earth would you watch 30 SEL games?

 

[freer]

Out of the 30 games I watched last year alone, there was maybe 5 or 6 body checks in each game. Like I said earlier this only my opinion. If find European hockey soft.

Why on earth would you watch 30 SEL games?

Insomnia

 

[2badknees]

Nylander who plays in a European league where body contact is a swear word and is never seen.

One of the most inherently wrong comments I have ever seen on this forum. A lack of fighting (although it does still happen on occasion) is not a lack of body contact or checking.

I think he's guilty of hyperbole, but I tend to agree that the larger ice surfaces generally promote more of a skating game, and less of a physical one.

 

[Rebel_1812]

how come they don't say in the article how bad cody is defensively.  We need some defensive guys on the backend if the team wants to lower the GAA and SA.

 

[herman]

how come they don't say in the article how bad cody is defensively.  We need some defensive guys on the backend if the team wants to lower the GAA and SA.

I think the days of stay-at-home defense are done. With the make up of this team (and other successful templates), I think a more mobile defense corps that can quickly take/recover the puck and turn it up the ice for controlled carries or tick-tack passes will be the name of the game. Franson has everything but the mobility which can be mitigated with the right partner and forward support.

 

[Tigger]

how come they don't say in the article how bad cody is defensively.  We need some defensive guys on the backend if the team wants to lower the GAA and SA.

I think the days of stay-at-home defense are done. With the make up of this team (and other successful templates), I think a more mobile defense corps that can quickly take/recover the puck and turn it up the ice for controlled carries or tick-tack passes will be the name of the game. Franson has everything but the mobility which can be mitigated with the right partner and forward support.

You really want that for 6+ per? That's what it's going to take to sign him.

 

[freer]

how come they don't say in the article how bad cody is defensively.  We need some defensive guys on the backend if the team wants to lower the GAA and SA.

I think the days of stay-at-home defense are done. With the make up of this team (and other successful templates), I think a more mobile defense corps that can quickly take/recover the puck and turn it up the ice for controlled carries or tick-tack passes will be the name of the game. Franson has everything but the mobility which can be mitigated with the right partner and forward support.

You really want that for 6+ per? That's what it's going to take to sign him.

Well if it takes that much to sign him we better say bye-bye then

 

[herman]

how come they don't say in the article how bad cody is defensively.  We need some defensive guys on the backend if the team wants to lower the GAA and SA.

I think the days of stay-at-home defense are done. With the make up of this team (and other successful templates), I think a more mobile defense corps that can quickly take/recover the puck and turn it up the ice for controlled carries or tick-tack passes will be the name of the game. Franson has everything but the mobility which can be mitigated with the right partner and forward support.

You really want that for 6+ per? That's what it's going to take to sign him.

If he's under 5, he's still good value. But I think he'll be around 6 like you said, in which case we should replace from within the organization. If he reeeeaaaallly wants to play here, then the dollars will be worked out.

 

[freer]

how come they don't say in the article how bad cody is defensively.  We need some defensive guys on the backend if the team wants to lower the GAA and SA.

I think the days of stay-at-home defense are done. With the make up of this team (and other successful templates), I think a more mobile defense corps that can quickly take/recover the puck and turn it up the ice for controlled carries or tick-tack passes will be the name of the game. Franson has everything but the mobility which can be mitigated with the right partner and forward support.

You really want that for 6+ per? That's what it's going to take to sign him.

If he's under 5, he's still good value. But I think he'll be around 6 like you said, in which case we should replace from within the organization. If he reeeeaaaallly wants to play here, then the dollars will be worked out.

Agreed but how many players have you seen do that in TO.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

If he's under 5, he's still good value. But I think he'll be around 6 like you said, in which case we should replace from within the organization. If he reeeeaaaallly wants to play here, then the dollars will be worked out.

I'd probably go as high as $5.5mil, but only for 4 years. Then take off $0.25-0.5mil-ish for any other year he wants. So $4.5-5mil if he wants to go to 6 years. I do think he could do better than that on the open market though so like it's been said it all depends on how much he wants to stay. I wouldn't really want to get in a bidding war for him.

 

[Britishbulldog]

I see no way he comes in less than $5M. I'm also less hopeful about any sort of discount. It's easily arguable he took discounts the last two seasons already.

He does genuinely seem to want to play here though. Skipping arbitration that one year would indicate he's not just here for the money. Who knows.

I agree with Mirtle though, if they can get him at or under $5mil they need to get the deal one. One thing the article doesn't mention though (or at least it's not in the snippets) is that Franson can't officially sign anything until January 1st because he's on a 1-year contract.

I still wonder what the Leafs plan is for their defence. They can't run Phaneuf-Gardiner-Rielly on the left side long-term. Rielly is going to need a bigger role soon. One of them needs to move over to the right, with Phaneuf being the obvious candidate.

Rielly-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Franson/Polak
Percy-Polak/Robidas

So we'll likely see one of Franson/Polak/Robidas leave.

Honestly speaking, I see Gardiner going before Franson. Reilly is just as offensive and better defensive. IMO

With Phaneuf getting a long, expensive contract, Robidas with his restrictive 35+ contract combined with him starting to shake off the rust and play better, Polak being a beast that will jump into the rush and Rielly displaying that he is the real deal I think the defense men on the bubble are Gardiner and Franson. 

The only thing is that Franson is 6'5", is a coveted RH shot and has more points than Gardiner.  So I am with freer and believe that it is Gardiner with a cap hit of $4 + MIL being most likely to be moved.

I am hoping that Franson signs for 7 years at $5 MIL per.  That would bring him to age 34 to sign a 'retirement contract'.

Phaneuf $7.0 / Franson $5.0

Rielly $0.9 / Polak $2.75

??  $2.7 / Robidas $3.0

Holzer (depth guy) $0.925

= $22-ish MIL

 

[Rebel_1812]

how come they don't say in the article how bad cody is defensively.  We need some defensive guys on the backend if the team wants to lower the GAA and SA.

I think the days of stay-at-home defense are done. With the make up of this team (and other successful templates), I think a more mobile defense corps that can quickly take/recover the puck and turn it up the ice for controlled carries or tick-tack passes will be the name of the game. Franson has everything but the mobility which can be mitigated with the right partner and forward support.

And what success have the leafs had with the 'mobile defense corps' (asa no defense blueline)?  They have made the playoffs once since the lockout yet consistently have high point totals for their blueliners and also high GAA and shots against.

 

[Kin]

And what success have the leafs had with the 'mobile defense corps' (asa no defense blueline)?  They have made the playoffs once since the lockout yet consistently have high point totals for their blueliners and also high GAA and shots against.

You mean the super slick, fast moving defensive group that prominently featured guys like Luke Schenn, Mike Komisarek and Jeff Finger?

Look at the defensive groups in LA or Chicago and tell me which ones aren't good skaters.

 

[pnjunction]

Yes he has defensive and mobility downsides, but he's leading the D corps in points for the 3rd season in a row.  Nobody else back there seems to get shots through to the net the way he does.  That snapshot of his is world-class IMO and I think many teams would pay quite a bit to have that in their arsenal.

It's a tough call (signing a D-man with game-breaking offense but mediocre defense to a big deal) but I think if management isn't prepared to talk $5-6M per for 5-6 years we should probably cash in at the deadline.  Even tougher call if they are in a decent playoff position at the time (trading away the team's top offensive D-man).  Realistically we're extremely unlikely to win the Cup this year so any moves that make us better in the future are the way to go, but that's tough to swallow in the short term.

 

[Rebel_1812]

And what success have the leafs had with the 'mobile defense corps' (asa no defense blueline)?  They have made the playoffs once since the lockout yet consistently have high point totals for their blueliners and also high GAA and shots against.

You mean the super slick, fast moving defensive group that prominently featured guys like Luke Schenn, Mike Komisarek and Jeff Finger?

Look at the defensive groups in LA or Chicago and tell me which ones aren't good skaters.

I'm talking about the McCabes, Kaberles, Carlo's, Ian Whites, Brenden Bells, Stralmans, Reily's, Gardiners.  The guys that put points up but are shaky in the own end vastly out weigh the converse.  This is why the GAA and shots against are consistent problems.

 

[losveratos]

And what success have the leafs had with the 'mobile defense corps' (asa no defense blueline)?  They have made the playoffs once since the lockout yet consistently have high point totals for their blueliners and also high GAA and shots against.

You mean the super slick, fast moving defensive group that prominently featured guys like Luke Schenn, Mike Komisarek and Jeff Finger?

Look at the defensive groups in LA or Chicago and tell me which ones aren't good skaters.

I'm talking about the McCabes, Kaberles, Carlo's, Ian Whites, Brenden Bells, Stralmans, Reily's, Gardiners.  The guys that put points up but are shaky in the own end vastly out weigh the converse.  This is why the GAA and shots against are consistent problems.

Kaberle would be hard to sell as bad defensively... and I've been quite satisfied with Rielly.

When you throw those two into the point you're trying to make, I'm thinking it's making it harder for you to prove it.

 

[bustaheims]

When you throw those two into the point you're trying to make, I'm thinking it's making it harder for you to prove it.

It's not a good point to start with. It also doesn't help him when 3 of the guys he lists never played a full season with the Leafs (Stralman, Bell and Colaiacovo). So, really, it bolds down to 3 guys - White, Gardiner and McCabe. White, admitted, wasn't a great defender, but, he was also part of some thoroughly mediocre Leaf teams where the issues went much deeper than the mix on the blue line. Gardiner's still a young player who has shown glimpses of being able to play a very solid defensive game, he just lacks the consistency and possibly the confidence right now. McCabe's defensive deficiencies were largely overstated and, well, I wouldn't really include him when I was thinking of mobile defencemen the Leafs have had. He was a pretty ordinary skater.

Of course, you also have to look at other teams around the league who have done quite well with a group of very mobile blue liners. Just because it hasn't worked out for the Leafs doesn't mean it's a poor strategy. You still have to have the right group of mobile defencemen, have them playing in the right system, have a group of defensively responsible forwards doing their part, etc.

 

[Kin]

I'm talking about the McCabes, Kaberles, Carlo's, Ian Whites, Brenden Bells, Stralmans, Reily's, Gardiners.  The guys that put points up but are shaky in the own end vastly out weigh the converse.  This is why the GAA and shots against are consistent problems.

In 2006-2007 the Leafs defense featured, among others, White, McCabe, Kaberle, Bell and Colaiacovo and finished 7th overall in shots against. The team that Anton Stralman is currently leading in ice-time is 4th overall in shots against.

Leaving aside that several of the defensemen you listed as "poor defensively" really weren't or aren't, the fundamental premise is flawed because the Leafs have never been a defensive group that solely featured nothing but quick, fast defensemen and in the years they came closest, like 2006-2007, their shots against totals were actually pretty good.

There's a difference between saying that it doesn't matter if a defenseman is good defensively, which nobody is saying, and saying that the era of the big lumbering stay-at-home type is coming to a close. In today's NHL good defensemen have to be mobile. 

 

[herman]

And what success have the leafs had with the 'mobile defense corps' (asa no defense blueline)?  They have made the playoffs once since the lockout yet consistently have high point totals for their blueliners and also high GAA and shots against.

Busta and Nik have said it already, but a mobile defense corps doesn't mean they don't play defense (like some of our mobile defensemen sometimes seem to play); they play the type of game that does not require standing in front of the net and reacting to the incoming offence.

The only sure fire way to reduce goals against is to reduce shots against; the only way to reduce shots against is to be the one with the puck. A mobile defense corps (properly supported by backchecking forwards and a robust outlet system) gives you a better chance to playing with the puck, rather than without.

Rielly, Gardiner, Percy, and in a special way Franson (I'll explain below) are the types of defensemen you want to build your team off of. They are fast, can carry the puck calmly, and make passes to drive play towards the opposing net. Currently, they are still young and have flaws to their game, but when they mature and hit their stride, you'll see more of what the Leafs showed last night in the 2nd period. Rielly needs more experience and confidence in his abilities because he is strong as a truck and is faster than most on the team; Gardiner is blessed with sublime skating and puck handling but needs more development in reading the play and decision making; Percy has the mental game down with great vision and decisions, but hasn't developed the stamina and skills required to keep up with his brain.

Franson is a special case in that he has a ponderous gait and isn't particularly agile, but he has a beautiful seeing eye shot and highly accurate pass. The point of mobility is puck possession and driving it to the other net. Last I checked, nothing skates faster than a pass, so Franson's puck distribution ability is actually a form of mobile puck possession. He also shuts the door on blue line exits with great instincts and coordination. He prevents 2-3 breakouts every game to keep a cycle going.