Colorado granted permission to talk to Dubas

[Zee]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2017/06/06/leafs-links-kyle-dubas-offer-run-entire-hockey-operation-colorado-darren-dreger-william-nylanders-second-contract/

Bob McKenzie:

Dubas is not going to Colorado, but here is my understanding: The contact being made was from Colorado ownership. The contact with the Leafs and Dubas was in hopes of getting Dubas to come in and run the entire hockey operation of the Colorado Avalanche. What that means for everybody else there, and what the timing on all that is, I?m not sure. But we do know now that
Dubas isn?t going to Colorado; at least not now.

Gadzooks!

"Run the entire hockey operation" sounds like a fairly huge job to turn down (if he turned it down) or for the Leafs to block him from taking (if the Leafs blocked him from taking it).  It definitely wasn't just a lateral move for him, sounds like he would have been king of the Avalanche. Wonder what this means for his future with the Leafs.

 

[herman]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2017/06/06/leafs-links-kyle-dubas-offer-run-entire-hockey-operation-colorado-darren-dreger-william-nylanders-second-contract/

Bob McKenzie:

Dubas is not going to Colorado, but here is my understanding: The contact being made was from Colorado ownership. The contact with the Leafs and Dubas was in hopes of getting Dubas to come in and run the entire hockey operation of the Colorado Avalanche. What that means for everybody else there, and what the timing on all that is, I?m not sure. But we do know now that
Dubas isn?t going to Colorado; at least not now.

Gadzooks!

"Run the entire hockey operation" sounds like a fairly huge job to turn down (if he turned it down) or for the Leafs to block him from taking (if the Leafs blocked him from taking it).  It definitely wasn't just a lateral move for him, sounds like he would have been king of the Avalanche. Wonder what this means for his future with the Leafs.

As Nik mentioned, it's not like the Toronto AGM position is a garbage, but one that seems tailored to groom him, with many learning opportunities and resources, into a leadership role with an actually successful foundation.

The King of the Avalanche is a nice sounding gig, but it's not a majestical Rocky Mountain he'd be presiding over -- more of a mound of tires on fire, with not nearly as much to work with as when Dubas first started here. Plus, it sounds like ownership sidestepped Sakic and co. and were looking to put a semi-rookie 30 year old over them in authority.

 

[herman]

I read this take elsewhere in multiple comments on the blogs/reddit, but it makes sense to me: you really only get one shot to make a name for yourself in the GM business; tank it, and it's a hard hill to climb back into that echelon.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Colorado's awful right now, sure, but if I had the choice to pick one of the bottom feeder teams to run right now it'd probably be them. Nobody else has a core of MacKinnon/Duchene/Landeskog. Mikko Rantanen looks like a very good prospect too. Trade Duchene for a Justin Faulk type, make some good free agent signings to patch up holes (they've got plenty of cap space) and stop making stupid decisions and they're on the rise.

 

[ZBBM]

I read this take elsewhere in multiple comments on the blogs/reddit, but it makes sense to me: you really only get one shot to make a name for yourself in the GM business; tank it, and it's a hard hill to climb back into that echelon.

What's your drift here, sir?  Are you saying JFJ is finished?!?

 

[herman]

Colorado's awful right now, sure, but if I had the choice to pick one of the bottom feeder teams to run right now it'd probably be them. Nobody else has a core of MacKinnon/Duchene/Landeskog. Mikko Rantanen looks like a very good prospect too. Trade Duchene for a Justin Faulk type, make some good free agent signings to patch up holes (they've got plenty of cap space) and stop making stupid decisions and they're on the rise.

They'd have to rebuild their front office and scouting department almost from the ground up. Other than the names you've listed (relatively high end though they may be), there isn't much by way of redeeming qualities in the pipeline. Moving Landeskog and Duchene could go a long way to helping that cause, to go with whoever they nab at 4th overall after a year or two.

Their forward group is not cripplingly old, but their backend is a bit bogged down. Barrie would need support to continue to grow if they end up keeping him.

 

[Zee]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2017/06/06/leafs-links-kyle-dubas-offer-run-entire-hockey-operation-colorado-darren-dreger-william-nylanders-second-contract/

Bob McKenzie:

Dubas is not going to Colorado, but here is my understanding: The contact being made was from Colorado ownership. The contact with the Leafs and Dubas was in hopes of getting Dubas to come in and run the entire hockey operation of the Colorado Avalanche. What that means for everybody else there, and what the timing on all that is, I?m not sure. But we do know now that
Dubas isn?t going to Colorado; at least not now.

Gadzooks!

"Run the entire hockey operation" sounds like a fairly huge job to turn down (if he turned it down) or for the Leafs to block him from taking (if the Leafs blocked him from taking it).  It definitely wasn't just a lateral move for him, sounds like he would have been king of the Avalanche. Wonder what this means for his future with the Leafs.

As Nik mentioned, it's not like the Toronto AGM position is a garbage, but one that seems tailored to groom him, with many learning opportunities and resources, into a leadership role with an actually successful foundation.

The King of the Avalanche is a nice sounding gig, but it's not a majestical Rocky Mountain he'd be presiding over -- more of a mound of tires on fire, with not nearly as much to work with as when Dubas first started here. Plus, it sounds like ownership sidestepped Sakic and co. and were looking to put a semi-rookie 30 year old over them in authority.

I don't know how you can say Dubas wouldn't have as much to work with in Colorado as he had when he came onboard in Toronto.  The Leafs had just drafted Nylander that summer, so there was no Marner or Matthews in the pipeline yet.  As far as the front office and scouting goes, Dubas would already have a quasi-blueprint to follow from the Leafs teardown.  Basically fire anyone who you deem is incompetent in their jobs and hire scouts you trust.  The Avalanche already have some young high end talent on the roster, I'm sure a smart GM can go in there and turn them around in relatively short order.

 

[herman]

More from Bob (TSN via MLHS):

The whole thing is more or less shrouded in secrecy. There is not a lot that we know. Elliotte Friedman was first to report that Colorado had asked for permission to talk to Kyle Dubas. By the time that Elliotte first reported that, the thing had actually been put together and Dubas wasn?t going to the Colorado Avalanche. The fact that they had asked for permission was 100% accurate.

He?s not going to the Avalanche; certainly not now. My understanding of the situation ? again, it?s totally shrouded in secrecy, so best I can tell ? is that the approach to Kyle Dubas to the Toronto Maple Leafs was made by Colorado Avalanche ownership. The intention or desire, or the proposal, was that Kyle Dubas would run all of the hockey operations for the Colorado Avalanche.

Now, it didn?t happen for whatever reason. Some people believe the Leafs had the ability to withdraw Dubas from the process. Maybe Dubas withdrew himself. I don?t know, but in any case, it didn?t happen. At this point in time, it?s not expected to happen.

 

[herman]

I don't know how you can say Dubas wouldn't have as much to work with in Colorado as he had when he came onboard in Toronto.  The Leafs had just drafted Nylander that summer, so there was no Marner or Matthews in the pipeline yet.  As far as the front office and scouting goes, Dubas would already have a quasi-blueprint to follow from the Leafs teardown.  Basically fire anyone who you deem is incompetent in their jobs and hire scouts you trust.  The Avalanche already have some young high end talent on the roster, I'm sure a smart GM can go in there and turn them around in relatively short order.

I was saying he would have less there than he does in Toronto now, rather than Toronto circa 2014.

While I do not doubt that Dubas could have done an admirable job there, he's a lot closer to tangible results here, in no small part due to his work with Hunter and Pridham in the first two years of his tenure.

 

[Zee]

I don't know how you can say Dubas wouldn't have as much to work with in Colorado as he had when he came onboard in Toronto.  The Leafs had just drafted Nylander that summer, so there was no Marner or Matthews in the pipeline yet.  As far as the front office and scouting goes, Dubas would already have a quasi-blueprint to follow from the Leafs teardown.  Basically fire anyone who you deem is incompetent in their jobs and hire scouts you trust.  The Avalanche already have some young high end talent on the roster, I'm sure a smart GM can go in there and turn them around in relatively short order.

I was saying he would have less there than he does in Toronto now, rather than Toronto circa 2014.

While I do not doubt that Dubas could have done an admirable job there, he's a lot closer to tangible results here, in no small part due to his work with Hunter and Pridham in the first two years of his tenure.

True enough, but that all depends on what type of role they allow Dubas to have here.  The bulk of the credit for the Leafs success will go to Shanahan, Hunter, Lou and Babcock.  Starting out in a bad situation with Colorado and turning that around, he would have gotten the majority of the credit. 

Again I hope this means that Shanahan has big plans for Dubas going forward.  I'm expecting an announcement that Lou is ready to step away after this next season and hand over to the kid.

 

[herman]

True enough, but that all depends on what type of role they allow Dubas to have here.  The bulk of the credit for the Leafs success will go to Shanahan, Hunter, Lou and Babcock.  Starting out in a bad situation with Colorado and turning that around, he would have gotten the majority of the credit. 

Again I hope this means that Shanahan has big plans for Dubas going forward.  I'm expecting an announcement that Lou is ready to step away after this next season and hand over to the kid.

Dreger (ugh) mentioned that Dubas will have an elevated role this coming season (part of the contract extension). As to what that will be I think we'll find out July.

There are already some impressive things on Dubas' Leafs resume:
- 2015 Draft trades: trading down from 24 to net 3 more (Dermott, Bracco, Dzierkals), the Marincin and Hyman trades
- taking the Leafs moribund prospect pool in 2014-16 and tweaking it from an AHL playoff wannabe to contender, thanks to suppressed NHL talent (see final point), and managing the carousel of call ups and downs
- taking a depleted Marlies team into the playoffs again (2016-17) with some key moves with a very young core
- you don't get to see what they do exactly, but the analytics department, skills development, and sports science groups are largely Dubas' doing
- I don't think I'm assuming too much here to say that Dubas' work in explaining analytics (PDO at the very least) to the existing front office precipitated Shanahan's teardown request to ownership

 

[Frank E]

I keep beating this drum here, but we don't really know if Dubas > Hunter at this point, do we?

Hunter ran one of the most profitable and successful junior teams in Canada in London for over a decade, a whole lot longer and with a lot more success than Dubas.  He also coached in the AHL and OHL.  Dubas ran the Soo Greyhounds for 4 years, then was hired by the Leafs a few years ago.  Hunter seems to outrank Dubas in the organization at this point, although I guess we don't really know who has Lou's or Shanny's ear, or what Dubas' new deal entails.

I would bet that when Lou walks away, they'd give the job to Hunter, and give Dubas Hunter's job.

 

[herman]

That Dreger talk about Dubas: http://www.tsn.ca/video/insider-trading-teams-are-lining-up-for-vatanen~1141351
He heard that the Leafs granted permission initially because they thought the Avs were merely consulting Dubas on analytics and how to set up their own department. When they heard he was being jobbed, then came the kibosh.

I am skeptical of Dreger, but it all fits in the puzzle gaps left open by Friedman, Mirtle, and McKenzie.

 

[herman]

I keep beating this drum here, but we don't really know if Dubas > Hunter at this point, do we?

Hunter ran one of the most profitable and successful junior teams in Canada in London for over a decade, a whole lot longer and with a lot more success than Dubas.  He also coached in the AHL and OHL.  Dubas ran the Soo Greyhounds for 4 years, then was hired by the Leafs a few years ago.  Hunter seems to outrank Dubas in the organization at this point, although I guess we don't really know who has Lou's or Shanny's ear, or what Dubas' new deal entails.

I would bet that when Lou walks away, they'd give the job to Hunter, and give Dubas Hunter's job.

Most beat reporters around the team, who see Hunter pretty regularly, have all said their feeling is that Hunter prefers staying in his current role as uber-scout, lord of all the scouts, and to leave the minutae of management to others.

 

[Zee]

I keep beating this drum here, but we don't really know if Dubas > Hunter at this point, do we?

Hunter ran one of the most profitable and successful junior teams in Canada in London for over a decade, a whole lot longer and with a lot more success than Dubas.  He also coached in the AHL and OHL.  Dubas ran the Soo Greyhounds for 4 years, then was hired by the Leafs a few years ago.  Hunter seems to outrank Dubas in the organization at this point, although I guess we don't really know who has Lou's or Shanny's ear, or what Dubas' new deal entails.

I would bet that when Lou walks away, they'd give the job to Hunter, and give Dubas Hunter's job.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Hunter preferred to be in head of scouting role as opposed to the day to day GM duties which would involve trade talks, contracts etc. 

My thoughts on Dubas are that he's part of the new generation, the kind of hockey minds that grew up with cap always on the mind, and performance per dollar as the driving force behind player decisions.  I think a young, forward thinking guy like him might be in a better position to succeed in the future NHL as opposed to Hunter who's been around for awhile and follows a more traditional hockey approach. 

 

[disco]

Hunter continuing as uber-scout, Dubas as GM and Lamoriello as consultant would be as great brain-trust I think. Shanahan as executive and Babcock as head-coach. What a program! It will be mostly core and cap management for the next decade. Kyle can utilize Lou's rolodex

 

[Highlander]

I like that plan Disco!

 

[herman]

http://chk.tbe.taleo.net/chk06/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=MAPLELEAFSPORTS&cws=1&rid=3424

This is a job listing for an 'Analyst, Hockey Research & Development' with the Leafs.

Looks like the department is growing.

Furiously learning Python in the next week or two...

 

[louisstamos]

http://chk.tbe.taleo.net/chk06/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=MAPLELEAFSPORTS&cws=1&rid=3424

This is a job listing for an 'Analyst, Hockey Research & Development' with the Leafs.

Looks like the department is growing.

Furiously learning Python in the next week or two...

Damn.  I'm not proficient in Python, either...

...that said, my pythons are proficient! *flexes*

I'll see myself out...

 

[Highlander]

http://chk.tbe.taleo.net/chk06/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=MAPLELEAFSPORTS&cws=1&rid=3424

This is a job listing for an 'Analyst, Hockey Research & Development' with the Leafs.

Looks like the department is growing.

Furiously learning Python in the next week or two...

Would hate to lose the Herminator from the site!  Nik how are you Python skills?