GhostofPotvin29
New member
Agreed, it's scary.
Explosions at finish line of Boston Marathon
- Thread starter GhostofPotvin29
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GhostofPotvin29
New member
I don't personally think there's anything funny or enjoyable about a parent or relative having trouble coming to terms with a situation like this. I can't even begin to imagine being in the same situation.
Kin
New member
losveratos said:
Doesn't that sort of assume a pretty organized and coherent intent on the part of these two idiots? Right now we don't know why they did it or what they hoped to accomplish so saying that any actions, even hypothetical actions some people might like to see taken, would somehow further their message and would let "them" win seems just as much of a rush to judgment as the one you're criticizing. For all we know these two just wanted to cause chaos and kill people.
Nik said:
Certainly seems that way, as they didn't have much of an end game. I mean, not a lot of careful planning goes into dropping a backpack and walking away. They just picked a crowded place, waited until nobody noticed, and dropped the bags.
The truth is, most people don't notice those things, or if they do, they don't really care. I used to work security at Union Station, and it was standard practice to examine and remove any unattended baggage. You'd be surprised at how often people would just leave their things lying around and nobody would say anything, or even realize that it was there. The best is when people would come storming into our office wondering where their things went and would be completely dumbfounded as to why we removed their baggage.
Honestly, it would be pretty easy for this to happen 1000 times over.
#1PilarFan
New member
I doubt anyone thinks this brief incident of domestic terrorism does anything to undermine the US' reputation as a dangerous and dominant superpower.Floats like a Kadri said:
hockeyfan1
New member
From:
link
Tamerlan Tsarnaev ranted at a neighbour about Islam and the United States. His younger brother, Dzhokhar, relished debating people on religion, "then crushing their beliefs with facts."
Tamerlan "swaggered" through the family home like a "man-of-the-house type," one visitor recalls, while Dzhokhar seemed "very respectful and very obedient" to his mother.
...their uncle is certain Dzhokhar was not the one pulling the strings.
Criminologist James Alan Fox said the uncle's intuition is justified. In cases like this, he said, it is highly unusual for the younger participant ? in this case, a sibling ? to be the leader.
Anne Kilzer would go to the Tsarnaev home for regular facials from the boys' mother, Zubeidat. She said the older brother was a "macho guy," whereas Dzhokhar seemed more cerebral.
The few times that Tamerlan was there, he would wave his mother off when she tried to introduce him. "He sort of swaggered through," she said. "Sort of a man-of-the-house type."
the mother also expressed some rather strident views about the U.S. government. But it was difficult to know who was influencing whom in the household."During this facial session she started quoting a conspiracy theory, telling me that she thought 9-11 was purposefully created by the American government to make America hate Muslims," Kilzer wrote. "'It's real,' she said.
Tamerlan "started carrying all this nonsense associated with religion, with Islamic religion."When he asked his older nephew why he wasn't in school, he said Tamerlan gave an enigmatic answer. "Oh, I'm in God's business," the young man replied.
Tamerlan would throw out foreign words like "jihad" and "Inshallah" ? Arabic for "God willing" ? without really understanding their meaning, he said.
Others began noticing signs of Tamerlan's increasing agitation.One of the brothers' neighbours, Albrecht Ammon. The older brother argued with him about U.S. foreign policy, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and religion.He said Tamerlan referred to the Bible as a "cheap copy" of the Qur'an and that many of this country's wars "are based upon the Bible ? how it's an excuse to invade other countries.
""He had nothing against the American people," Ammon said. "He had something against the American government.
"Dzhokhar, on the other hand, was "real cool," Ammon said. "A chill guy."
While his older brother was railing about religion and world politics, Dzhokhar seemed more interested in the HBO series "Game of Thrones" and other television shows.
He did tweet about religion, but they were hardly the words of a hard-core zealot.
Fox said it's not unheard of for the younger person in a crime team to be the dominant personality. But he said it's rare."In this case, the older brother is the one that seems to have become religious and drawn to Islam," Fox said.
"The older brother dropped out of school ... whereas the younger brother, it was all positives."But, he said, "the age factor is critical here."
Tamerlan once said he had no American friends. His brother had lots of them, but fellow students at UMass-Dartmouth say he had increasingly taken to hanging out with other Russians.
On March 14, 2012, Dzhokhar tweeted: "a decade in america already, i want out".
I don't argue with fools who say Islam is terrorism it's not worth a thing, let an idiot remain an idiot."
The day of the bombing, he wrote: "There are people that know the truth but stay silent & there are people that speak the truth but we don't hear them cuz they're the minority."
Tsarni was confident authorities will find that Tamerlan was his younger brother's "mentor.""Dzhokhar, of course, was looking up at him," he said.
link
Tamerlan Tsarnaev ranted at a neighbour about Islam and the United States. His younger brother, Dzhokhar, relished debating people on religion, "then crushing their beliefs with facts."
Tamerlan "swaggered" through the family home like a "man-of-the-house type," one visitor recalls, while Dzhokhar seemed "very respectful and very obedient" to his mother.
...their uncle is certain Dzhokhar was not the one pulling the strings.
Criminologist James Alan Fox said the uncle's intuition is justified. In cases like this, he said, it is highly unusual for the younger participant ? in this case, a sibling ? to be the leader.
Anne Kilzer would go to the Tsarnaev home for regular facials from the boys' mother, Zubeidat. She said the older brother was a "macho guy," whereas Dzhokhar seemed more cerebral.
The few times that Tamerlan was there, he would wave his mother off when she tried to introduce him. "He sort of swaggered through," she said. "Sort of a man-of-the-house type."
the mother also expressed some rather strident views about the U.S. government. But it was difficult to know who was influencing whom in the household."During this facial session she started quoting a conspiracy theory, telling me that she thought 9-11 was purposefully created by the American government to make America hate Muslims," Kilzer wrote. "'It's real,' she said.
Tamerlan "started carrying all this nonsense associated with religion, with Islamic religion."When he asked his older nephew why he wasn't in school, he said Tamerlan gave an enigmatic answer. "Oh, I'm in God's business," the young man replied.
Tamerlan would throw out foreign words like "jihad" and "Inshallah" ? Arabic for "God willing" ? without really understanding their meaning, he said.
Others began noticing signs of Tamerlan's increasing agitation.One of the brothers' neighbours, Albrecht Ammon. The older brother argued with him about U.S. foreign policy, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and religion.He said Tamerlan referred to the Bible as a "cheap copy" of the Qur'an and that many of this country's wars "are based upon the Bible ? how it's an excuse to invade other countries.
""He had nothing against the American people," Ammon said. "He had something against the American government.
"Dzhokhar, on the other hand, was "real cool," Ammon said. "A chill guy."
While his older brother was railing about religion and world politics, Dzhokhar seemed more interested in the HBO series "Game of Thrones" and other television shows.
He did tweet about religion, but they were hardly the words of a hard-core zealot.
Fox said it's not unheard of for the younger person in a crime team to be the dominant personality. But he said it's rare."In this case, the older brother is the one that seems to have become religious and drawn to Islam," Fox said.
"The older brother dropped out of school ... whereas the younger brother, it was all positives."But, he said, "the age factor is critical here."
Tamerlan once said he had no American friends. His brother had lots of them, but fellow students at UMass-Dartmouth say he had increasingly taken to hanging out with other Russians.
On March 14, 2012, Dzhokhar tweeted: "a decade in america already, i want out".
I don't argue with fools who say Islam is terrorism it's not worth a thing, let an idiot remain an idiot."
The day of the bombing, he wrote: "There are people that know the truth but stay silent & there are people that speak the truth but we don't hear them cuz they're the minority."
Tsarni was confident authorities will find that Tamerlan was his younger brother's "mentor.""Dzhokhar, of course, was looking up at him," he said.
TheMightyOdin
New member
I am sure the number has gone way up but at one point it was reported that Boston had lost over 300 million dollars because of these events.
Chev-boyar-sky
New member
Apparently the authorities are searching for a 12 person sleeper cell:
link
Others already taken into custody:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-20/terrorista1
I have to say that it's an odd situation. Apparently the FBI were warned about Tamerlan a year or so ago by the Russian FSB and had been in contact with him (as well as the family). At first the FBI denied this but when the family came out with the information, they acquiesced.
There are other strange things like there happened to be a "controlled explosion" drill going on during the marathon, and at first it was reported the suspect was Saudi and in custody (which was changed).
Some of this can obviously be attributed to trying to break the story first/sloppy journalism. Other parts bizarre coincidence, I guess.
I'd like to see evidence of the brothers guilt (video of them placing bombs, robbing the 7/11, eye witness reports etc.) before I get my hate on. No Miranda rights for the surviving suspect, er I mean, guilty terrorist.
I found the comment about "letting the terrorists win" funny. 2 yahoos set off 2 bombs killing a few people and the city of Boston effectively declares Martial Law and becomes a ghost town save for the Hummers, swat teams, snipers, BPD etc. The same Law enforcement enter properties without warrants and apparently confiscated property from some individuals and the guy is found injured in a boat (by the homeowner) and it took thousands of FBI/BPD/others to make the heroic arrest?
I think this past week-end shows that it's not about us letting them win, the police state is already in effect and personal freedoms will be violated whether we like it or not. I'm just surprised Obama didn't invoke his droning powers...
link
Others already taken into custody:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-20/terrorista1
I have to say that it's an odd situation. Apparently the FBI were warned about Tamerlan a year or so ago by the Russian FSB and had been in contact with him (as well as the family). At first the FBI denied this but when the family came out with the information, they acquiesced.
There are other strange things like there happened to be a "controlled explosion" drill going on during the marathon, and at first it was reported the suspect was Saudi and in custody (which was changed).
Some of this can obviously be attributed to trying to break the story first/sloppy journalism. Other parts bizarre coincidence, I guess.
I'd like to see evidence of the brothers guilt (video of them placing bombs, robbing the 7/11, eye witness reports etc.) before I get my hate on. No Miranda rights for the surviving suspect, er I mean, guilty terrorist.
I found the comment about "letting the terrorists win" funny. 2 yahoos set off 2 bombs killing a few people and the city of Boston effectively declares Martial Law and becomes a ghost town save for the Hummers, swat teams, snipers, BPD etc. The same Law enforcement enter properties without warrants and apparently confiscated property from some individuals and the guy is found injured in a boat (by the homeowner) and it took thousands of FBI/BPD/others to make the heroic arrest?
I think this past week-end shows that it's not about us letting them win, the police state is already in effect and personal freedoms will be violated whether we like it or not. I'm just surprised Obama didn't invoke his droning powers...
Chev-boyar-sky
New member
Chev-boyar-sky said:
If you have a severe weather situation, folks evacuate or hunker down for safety.
If you have a domestic shooter on the loose, schools or communities lockdown (or in some cases where safety permits/prevails, evacuate)
His example of Israel not doing something like that, ignoring they go into bunkers/under cover during rocket attacks, isn't so hot:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/146936#.UXPY5qKG2So
The area has been declared a closed military area and the IDF spokesman has asked people to keep away.
To me, it's simply a matter of common sense safety - whether it's a domestic shooter on a rampage, a weather/industrial/environmental problem or a terrorist.
As such, I don't think the terrorists "win" because there's a heck of a lot of public resentment for their cause when they pull crap like that.
I'm sure we can nitpick what happened in Boston but generally, I think they handled it pretty well. As Jon Stewart put it, two bad guys committed this crime and thousands upon thousands of Bostonians stepped up in response. For all of the fuss and the potential threat, only losing four lives and capturing these guys so quickly is a pretty good result. Obviously, what they did was horrific and beyond the four lives lost are many maimed so I don't want to appear callous or insensitive. It was absolutely awful. But considering the exposure the US society has, there hasn't been a lot of this since 9/11 - much less than I expected. And they've caught a lot of them trying to pull something off before they were successful.
Terrorism is here to stay as a fear that will be in the back of many people's minds as it's impossible to stop 100% guaranteed without excessive cost and very arguably excessive sacrifice to the freedoms we enjoy. Israel lives with the threat. So do Russia, India, Pakistan, Indonesia and North America along with most civilized countries in the world. Sometimes, when it strikes, we're just going to have to hunker down until the threat gets dealt with - just like we do with any other threat to our safety and just like many other countries do in similar circumstances.
Kin
New member
Chev-boyar-sky said:
There's a lot of talk about this supposed denial of Miranda rights but I think that in general this comes from a lousy understanding of what Miranda rights are. A lot of people, because it goes this way in TV and movies, think that Miranda rights are some sort of inalienable guarantee that people get upon arrest and that any arrest without a reading of Miranda rights is invalid. That's just not true.
"Miranda rights" refer to the legal facts the police are obligated to inform a suspect of if they want any statements that suspect may make admissable in court. That's it and even then it's not absolute(because of things like the invoked public safety exception which is not related to terrorism). You can arrest someone without reading them. You can prosecute someone without them having been read. It's generally a good idea to read them to someone because you're almost certainly going to interrogate them but there's nothing about it that mandates or requires police to "give" them to anyone unless at some point they want to introduce a statement as evidence. Saying the suspect has "no miranda rights" doesn't really mean anything.
Chev-boyar-sky said:
So was it two yahoos or was it "them"? If it was two yahoos what were their aims...to turn America into a police state? If these two are connected to a larger terrorist network is that network's aim, their "win", a matter of changing American law enforcement policy?
That line of thinking doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems like a relic from the kind of thing George W. Bush would say where instead of change to American foreign policy what "terrorists" were about was "hating freedom" and therefore any infringements on civil liberties is a "win". But most terrorism is actually made with actual tangible goals in mind. The establishment of a Palestinian state, the removal of American military bases from Saudi Arabia...nobody gets into the terrorism game to make Boston a temporarily worse place. Nobody "won" anything here.
Here's the FBI's write up on Miranda rights
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/february2011/legal_digest
CONCLUSION
The "public safety" exception to Miranda is a powerful tool with a modern application for law enforcement. When police officers are confronted by a concern for public safety, Miranda warnings need not be provided prior to asking questions directed at neutralizing an imminent threat, and voluntary statements made in response to such narrowly tailored questions can be admitted at trial. Once the questions turn from those designed to resolve the concern for safety to questions designed solely to elicit incriminating statements, the questioning falls outside the scope of the exception and within the traditional rules of Miranda.
In general, I don't see a big problem with that.
Regardless, like any accused, he has the option of saying nothing.
Reportedly, they already confessed to the bombing of the marathon to the guy they carjacked.
In this particular case, I don't think they'll need any testimony from him to get a substantial conviction so it's not likely to be much of an issue should it go to trial.
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/february2011/legal_digest
CONCLUSION
The "public safety" exception to Miranda is a powerful tool with a modern application for law enforcement. When police officers are confronted by a concern for public safety, Miranda warnings need not be provided prior to asking questions directed at neutralizing an imminent threat, and voluntary statements made in response to such narrowly tailored questions can be admitted at trial. Once the questions turn from those designed to resolve the concern for safety to questions designed solely to elicit incriminating statements, the questioning falls outside the scope of the exception and within the traditional rules of Miranda.
In general, I don't see a big problem with that.
Regardless, like any accused, he has the option of saying nothing.
Reportedly, they already confessed to the bombing of the marathon to the guy they carjacked.
In this particular case, I don't think they'll need any testimony from him to get a substantial conviction so it's not likely to be much of an issue should it go to trial.
hockeyfan1
New member
Some interesting facts...
...this information does not conclusively prove that all of the military type individuals pictured at the scene were part of a National Guard CST team. Yet it does,
The fact that the individuals were also pictured conversing with FBI personnel and police at the scene also suggests that their presence was pre-planned.
...the FBI could have simply cleared this up by issuing a statement identifying the military types as members of CST teams. Instead, however, they chose to ignore the pictures altogether and order members of the public not to even acknowledge the existence of the pictures ? causing much confusion, speculation and mistrust among those who were following the events closely.
In addition, this information does not mean that the authorities did not have prior knowledge of the bombing. If anything, the massive security presence bolsters the notion that they very much could have had prior knowledge, particularly in conjunction with the fact that the suspects were already well known to the FBI, and with the ever developing shady Saudi connections.
Source: The Guardian
...this information does not conclusively prove that all of the military type individuals pictured at the scene were part of a National Guard CST team. Yet it does,
The fact that the individuals were also pictured conversing with FBI personnel and police at the scene also suggests that their presence was pre-planned.
...the FBI could have simply cleared this up by issuing a statement identifying the military types as members of CST teams. Instead, however, they chose to ignore the pictures altogether and order members of the public not to even acknowledge the existence of the pictures ? causing much confusion, speculation and mistrust among those who were following the events closely.
In addition, this information does not mean that the authorities did not have prior knowledge of the bombing. If anything, the massive security presence bolsters the notion that they very much could have had prior knowledge, particularly in conjunction with the fact that the suspects were already well known to the FBI, and with the ever developing shady Saudi connections.
Source: The Guardian
OrangeBlack
New member
How did they feel alienated? From everything I've read, there were alot of people that liked the brothers, & were shocked by what happened....especially shocked that the younger brother was involved. There were many accounts that he had alot of friends & lived a normal college life.moon111 said:
As for the Islam faith exposure, it happens over & over & over on the news. How are we not expected to develop some sort of stereotypes or prejudices? It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is.
OrangeBlack
New member
Miranda or no Miranda, he is definitely getting convicted. The important part is getting maximum information from him. Therefore, he should be declared an "enemy combatant"...giving authorities unlimited time & latitude in questioning him. It doesn't matter that he is a US citizen, he is no different than a foreign terrorist.cw said:
Heroic Shrimp
New member
OrangeBlack said:
Given that virtually all such atrocities are committed by men, you should probably also be prejudiced against men.