Game 38: Leafs @ Devils - Apr. 6, 7:00pm - CBC, TSN 1050

[ZBBM]

Sitting Frattin is beyond idiotic.

No kidding.  It is so irritating.

Yeah, but in truth Orr & Frazer are producing as much as Frattin.  Talk about a disappearing act since he came back.

Now, having said that, I agree with you.  I'd be giving him every chance to get out of his rut.

Not me, I say give Joe.C a chance and let Frattin sweat about his job, then put him in. no one gets a free ride in Tor any more.

Except Orr and McLaren.

Well in fairness to them they are doing what their skillset dictates and that is to fight.  I certainly don't expect them to provide offence or defence for that matter. It isn't there fault that RC feels the need to keep trotting them both out there.  So they aren't not living up to their billing,  RC is.

Yes, I don't get the criticism of Orr and McLaren -- you are 100% correct.

In fact, McLaren has 2 GWGs I believe.

 

[princedpw]

Sitting Frattin is beyond idiotic.

No kidding.  It is so irritating.

Yeah, but in truth Orr & Frazer are producing as much as Frattin.  Talk about a disappearing act since he came back.

Except Orr isn't producing as much -- and let's not just count goals as production.  Let's count stuff like puck possession as measured by shots for and against and how many times a guy's shift starts in the defensive zone and yet ends in the offensive zone so he has gained a territorial advantage for the next guy who jumps over the boards.  And let's take in to account how many penalties a guy draws putting his team on the power play.  By any of those metrics, Frattin is producing massively better results than Orr and one would expect that in the future, playing Frattin in place of Orr would help the team win.

Oh, and the 10 goals he scored at the beginning of the season do, of course, count for something.  He did get a little lucky and it does seem likely that Naz drove the offense, but he was still there to put the puck in the hole ... and did win that game against NJ (or was it buffalo?) with less than 1 second left due to a solo rush down the wing ... All tangible results you don't give him a chance to produce when Orr is playing in his stead ....

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&f1=2012_s&f2=5v5&f4=C+LW+RW&f5=TOR&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

McLaren is a late scratch - Hamilton draws in.

 

[iwas11in67]

Road warrior Leafs by 1.

 

[ZBBM]

Sitting Frattin is beyond idiotic.

No kidding.  It is so irritating.

Yeah, but in truth Orr & Frazer are producing as much as Frattin.  Talk about a disappearing act since he came back.

Except Orr isn't producing as much -- and let's not just count goals as production.  Let's count stuff like puck possession as measured by shots for and against and how many times a guy's shift starts in the defensive zone and yet ends in the offensive zone so he has gained a territorial advantage for the next guy who jumps over the boards.  And let's take in to account how many penalties a guy draws putting his team on the power play.  By any of those metrics, Frattin is producing massively better results than Orr and one would expect that in the future, playing Frattin in place of Orr would help the team win.

Oh, and the 10 goals he scored at the beginning of the season do, of course, count for something.  He did get a little lucky and it does seem likely that Naz drove the offense, but he was still there to put the puck in the hole ... and did win that game against NJ (or was it buffalo?) with less than 1 second left due to a solo rush down the wing ... All tangible results you don't give him a chance to produce when Orr is playing in his stead ....

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&f1=2012_s&f2=5v5&f4=C+LW+RW&f5=TOR&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67

Agree with all you say -- but Frattin is expected to score and he's not doing it lately.  Orr at least is doing what's expected of him.

 

[lamajama]

Why am I watching Cassie Campbell? I'm on the Ontario feed....

edit...never mind....

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Yes, I don't get the criticism of Orr and McLaren -- you are 100% correct.

In fact, McLaren has 2 GWGs I believe.

GWG's are a pretty overrated stat unless you're somebody who is leading the league in them. I mean one of McLaren's GWG's was the first goal 3 minutes into a game that eventually ended 3-0. The other GWG put the Leafs up 3-0 against the Bruins, but Boston scored 2 after that. I'm not saying that the goals weren't valuable, but they weren't really any more valuable than any of the other goals scored in those games.

As for their actual value, if all they were expected to do was punch players in the face between plays then I give them an A+. But that's not all they need to do. They also have to play hockey on the ice every now and then and they're not very good at that at all.

 

[princedpw]

Sitting Frattin is beyond idiotic.

No kidding.  It is so irritating.

Yeah, but in truth Orr & Frazer are producing as much as Frattin.  Talk about a disappearing act since he came back.

Now, having said that, I agree with you.  I'd be giving him every chance to get out of his rut.

Not me, I say give Joe.C a chance and let Frattin sweat about his job, then put him in. no one gets a free ride in Tor any more.

Except Orr and McLaren.

Well in fairness to them they are doing what their skillset dictates and that is to fight.  I certainly don't expect them to provide offence or defence for that matter. It isn't there fault that RC feels the need to keep trotting them both out there.  So they aren't not living up to their billing,  RC is.

Yes, I don't get the criticism of Orr and McLaren -- you are 100% correct.

In fact, McLaren has 2 GWGs I believe.

It's not that I'm mad at those guys or feel they are bad people or feel they aren't trying or feel they are dishonorable or anything like that.  It is merely that all analysis of their play indicates they are very, very bad at playing hockey.  I dont blame them for being bad -- that is just the way it is though, unfortunately.  We have other players who are better and choosing to dress a guy like Orr again and again would seem to decrease the probability that we will win games.  (And nobody has ever been able to show that having 4th liners who are bad at playing hockey and good at boxing helps you win hockey games.)  So I'm mostly mad at the coaching staff really, not Orr.

 

[leafplasma]

McLaren is a late scratch - Hamilton draws in.

RC gets a reprieve excellent!

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Sitting Frattin is beyond idiotic.

No kidding.  It is so irritating.

Yeah, but in truth Orr & Frazer are producing as much as Frattin.  Talk about a disappearing act since he came back.

Except Orr isn't producing as much -- and let's not just count goals as production.  Let's count stuff like puck possession as measured by shots for and against and how many times a guy's shift starts in the defensive zone and yet ends in the offensive zone so he has gained a territorial advantage for the next guy who jumps over the boards.  And let's take in to account how many penalties a guy draws putting his team on the power play.  By any of those metrics, Frattin is producing massively better results than Orr and one would expect that in the future, playing Frattin in place of Orr would help the team win.

Oh, and the 10 goals he scored at the beginning of the season do, of course, count for something.  He did get a little lucky and it does seem likely that Naz drove the offense, but he was still there to put the puck in the hole ... and did win that game against NJ (or was it buffalo?) with less than 1 second left due to a solo rush down the wing ... All tangible results you don't give him a chance to produce when Orr is playing in his stead ....

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&f1=2012_s&f2=5v5&f4=C+LW+RW&f5=TOR&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67

Agree with all you say -- but Frattin is expected to score and he's not doing it lately.  Orr at least is doing what's expected of him.

Sitting him isn't really a way to stop that though.  Whether a shot goes in or not is just luck, so when he was really hot to start the season and really cold now, both stretches will regress (or the opposite) to the mean.  He's still a better option than Orr - he is just a better player, regardless of if he's not scoring.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

McLaren is a late scratch - Hamilton draws in.

Somebody wrote on twitter earlier today that after Kessel, Bozak, Kadri, and Phaneuf, Orr's spot in the line-up is the safest among any player. Seems pretty accurate to me.

 

[CoachKirill]

So CBC has Montreal game on here in Edmonton, yet NHL Gamecenter has me in a blackout area as well. Awesome.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

McLaren is a late scratch - Hamilton draws in.

RC gets a reprieve excellent!

It's a little better, although Hamilton hasn't really done anything yet to convince me he's anything more than a career AHLer.

 

[TML fan]

Sitting Frattin is beyond idiotic.

No kidding.  It is so irritating.

Yeah, but in truth Orr & Frazer are producing as much as Frattin.  Talk about a disappearing act since he came back.

Except Orr isn't producing as much -- and let's not just count goals as production.  Let's count stuff like puck possession as measured by shots for and against and how many times a guy's shift starts in the defensive zone and yet ends in the offensive zone so he has gained a territorial advantage for the next guy who jumps over the boards.  And let's take in to account how many penalties a guy draws putting his team on the power play.  By any of those metrics, Frattin is producing massively better results than Orr and one would expect that in the future, playing Frattin in place of Orr would help the team win.

Oh, and the 10 goals he scored at the beginning of the season do, of course, count for something.  He did get a little lucky and it does seem likely that Naz drove the offense, but he was still there to put the puck in the hole ... and did win that game against NJ (or was it buffalo?) with less than 1 second left due to a solo rush down the wing ... All tangible results you don't give him a chance to produce when Orr is playing in his stead ....

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&f1=2012_s&f2=5v5&f4=C+LW+RW&f5=TOR&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67

Agree with all you say -- but Frattin is expected to score and he's not doing it lately.  Orr at least is doing what's expected of him.

That's fine, but where's the consistency? van Riemsdyk hadn't scored in 10 games before the ostensibly meaningless goal he scored on Thursday. Other than being stapled to the bench for about 15 minutes in a game however many weeks ago, where's his accountability?

As for Frattin, he's been playing with Graboffensiveblackhole in a checking role with limited minutes since he came back, whereas van Riemsdyk is getting PP time and playing first line minutes with the team's second leading scorer.

Don't even get me started on Orr. He seems like a nice guy but he's completely useless. He doesn't even win fights anymore. He got pounded by Kassian and didn't fare any better against Rosehill. He can't do anything with the puck except give it away. He's slow and has almost no awareness in either zone. Seems like a spot Komarov, who is the definition of a 4th liner, can take but Komarov gets third line minutes at the expense of Frattin?

It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[pnjunction]

So CBC has Montreal game on here in Edmonton, yet NHL Gamecenter has me in a blackout area as well. Awesome.

CBC stream?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

So CBC has Montreal game on here in Edmonton, yet NHL Gamecenter has me in a blackout area as well. Awesome.

Lame. You can stream the game online though through CBC.ca:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockeynightincanada/video/live/#id=2332137947

 

[ZBBM]

Yes, I don't get the criticism of Orr and McLaren -- you are 100% correct.

In fact, McLaren has 2 GWGs I believe.

GWG's are a pretty overrated stat unless you're somebody who is leading the league in them. I mean one of McLaren's GWG's was the first goal 3 minutes into a game that eventually ended 3-0. The other GWG put the Leafs up 3-0 against the Bruins, but Boston scored 2 after that. I'm not saying that the goals weren't valuable, but they weren't really any more valuable than any of the other goals scored in those games.

As for their actual value, if all they were expected to do was punch players in the face between plays then I give them an A+. But that's not all they need to do. They also have to play hockey on the ice every now and then and they're not very good at that at all.

Well, if you don't care about winning games, I suppose.

Look, the fact that McLaren has ANY goals is kind of amazing considering his TOI.  I just don't get the bashing. 

 

[pnjunction]

Bozak's hair is still going lol..quite a mane he's got there

 

[ZBBM]

So CBC has Montreal game on here in Edmonton, yet NHL Gamecenter has me in a blackout area as well. Awesome.

Lame. You can stream the game online though through CBC.ca:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockeynightincanada/video/live/#id=2332137947

Except it's not working right now. 

 

[gilmourthegreat]

http://www.ilemi.pe/100640/1/Watch-New-Jersey-Devils-vs-Toronto-Maple-Leafs/