General Leafs Talk v2.0

[TML fan]

Then perhaps his time will come, and you should be a little more patient?

This team no longer has the luxury of patience.

That may be so, but I doubt it could be demonstrated that Holland's presence further up the depth chart would have a noticeable impact on the team's results.

And what would demonstrate that? The thing Holland brings that could impact results is some offensive skill, and you've ruled trust scouting reports, AHL play, or what was observed when he played further up the line-up as demonstrations of that skill.

He needs to prove he can play in the league before he's asked to do anything else. It's like "here, I'm going to put you at the controls of a 747 with 400 people on board because I saw you do it in a flight simulator once, and your test scores were very high"

The other option is putting a chimp who was shot into space at the controls of that jet.

The only thing that would demonstrate it would be him actually doing it, and when he's earned it, he will have a chance to do just that.

Whether it's the guy who just learned how to fly, or the chimp they shot into space, the plane is just as crashed. In this comparison, it appears the chimp has more experience and thus more likely to provide the better result.

 

[Bullfrog]

The only thing that would demonstrate it would be him actually doing it, and when he's earned it, he will have a chance to do just that.

Whether it's the guy who just learned how to fly, or the chimp they shot into space, the plane is just as crashed. In this comparison, it appears the chimp has more experience and thus more likely to provide the better result.

The biggest point in opposition to that, though, is that he's not really being placed in a position where he can effectively demonstrate his skills. He's theoretically better suited for a scoring role, so why not put him there to see if he can succeed?

 

[TML fan]

The only thing that would demonstrate it would be him actually doing it, and when he's earned it, he will have a chance to do just that.

Whether it's the guy who just learned how to fly, or the chimp they shot into space, the plane is just as crashed. In this comparison, it appears the chimp has more experience and thus more likely to provide the better result.

The biggest point in opposition to that, though, is that he's not really being placed in a position where he can effectively demonstrate his skills. He's theoretically better suited for a scoring role, so why not put him there to see if he can succeed?

Because if he can't, then you have a player who's less effective at both ends of the ice.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

This team no longer has the luxury of patience.

But isn't that only true, if that, in the context of this year and not in the context of properly bringing along a 22 year old player who might have a real future in the league?

You know, sometimes I wish you'd stop making sense.

 

[Jalili]

The only thing that would demonstrate it would be him actually doing it, and when he's earned it, he will have a chance to do just that.

Whether it's the guy who just learned how to fly, or the chimp they shot into space, the plane is just as crashed. In this comparison, it appears the chimp has more experience and thus more likely to provide the better result.

The biggest point in opposition to that, though, is that he's not really being placed in a position where he can effectively demonstrate his skills. He's theoretically better suited for a scoring role, so why not put him there to see if he can succeed?

I think it would even be better for his development to be put in a prominent position on the Marlies rather than on the 4th line... Especially considering the particular linemates he's stuck with on that line.

 

[bustaheims]

I fail to see how giving a player limited responsibility and having him struggle warrants giving him more responsibility.

If the argument is that he's not struggling, then logically, there is no harm in keeping him in that role until a point is reached that he's done his time in that role and sufficiently proven that he can maintain a consistent level of good play over an extended period of time, and the player he's bumping is struggling to the point that it warrants that player having his role reduced.

Well, he's not struggling. In fact, he's not being anywhere close to enough ice time to demonstrate that he'll potentially struggle in that role or to prove that he do more. McClement, on the other hand, is struggling with the increased ice time. He needs to have his role reduced, regardless of who takes over on the 3rd line. Holland deserves the opportunity until he fails, whereas McClement is already failing.

 

[bustaheims]

But isn't that only true, if that, in the context of this year and not in the context of properly bringing along a 22 year old player who might have a real future in the league?

To a point, sure, but, at the same time, I wouldn't call giving a 22 year old offensive forward 5 minutes a night on the 4th properly bringing him along, either. Giving him 12 or so somewhat sheltered minutes a night on a 3rd line, on the other hand, could definitely be.

 

[TML fan]

I fail to see how giving a player limited responsibility and having him struggle warrants giving him more responsibility.

If the argument is that he's not struggling, then logically, there is no harm in keeping him in that role until a point is reached that he's done his time in that role and sufficiently proven that he can maintain a consistent level of good play over an extended period of time, and the player he's bumping is struggling to the point that it warrants that player having his role reduced.

Well, he's not struggling. In fact, he's not being anywhere close to enough ice time to demonstrate that he'll potentially struggle in that role or to prove that he do more. McClement, on the other hand, is struggling with the increased ice time. He needs to have his role reduced, regardless of who takes over on the 3rd line. Holland deserves the opportunity until he fails, whereas McClement is already failing.

McClement's offensive woes are impossible to ignore, but I think his struggles are entirely overstated. As for Holland, I really fail to see in what way he deserves anything. He's played 7 games.

 

[Kin]

To a point, sure, but, at the same time, I wouldn't call giving a 22 year old offensive forward 5 minutes a night on the 4th properly bringing him along, either. Giving him 12 or so somewhat sheltered minutes a night on a 3rd line, on the other hand, could definitely be.

There's no one right or wrong way to bring someone along though. I agree on the five minutes thing but I think that as long as there's room for legitimate advancement that's based on his play rather than team need I think a lot of good players have broken in on a 4th line.

 

[L K]

To a point, sure, but, at the same time, I wouldn't call giving a 22 year old offensive forward 5 minutes a night on the 4th properly bringing him along, either. Giving him 12 or so somewhat sheltered minutes a night on a 3rd line, on the other hand, could definitely be.

There's no one right or wrong way to bring someone along though. I agree on the five minutes thing but I think that as long as there's room for legitimate advancement that's based on his play rather than team need I think a lot of good players have broken in on a 4th line.

I would love to see your list of 5:00 a night players who turn into useful scoring players. 

 

[gunnar36]

Just because scouts say he can provide offence doesn't mean he can. And if he can't, and can't do anything else, like the little things I described, then how is he a better choice?

Except that he's done all of the things you bring up except win face-offs at the same rate as McClement. He's hitting at a faster pace than McClement. He's only taken 2 penalties, one of which was an extremely questionable call. When he does get more than a handful of shifts, he's been one of the hardest working players on the ice when he's been on there. He's been doing all the little things, and, yet, here we are.

The weakness that I see (and maybe Carlyle as well) in Hollands game is that he is very content to play on the perimeter and needs to be a little more assertive in terms of retrieving pucks in traffic and taking the puck to the net since he does have the frame to do so but isn't really utilizing it yet.

 

[bustaheims]

The weakness that I see (and maybe Carlyle as well) in Hollands game is that he is very content to play on the perimeter and needs to be a little more assertive in terms of retrieving pucks in traffic and taking the puck to the net since he does have the frame to do so but isn't really utilizing it yet.

I'mnot sure I agree. When I've paid closer attention to him specifically, I've seen him go into corners to win puck battles and be very aggressive in terms of his defensive coverage.

 

[bustaheims]

McClement's offensive woes are impossible to ignore, but I think his struggles are entirely overstated. As for Holland, I really fail to see in what way he deserves anything. He's played 7 games.

I don't think they're overstated by most people, at all. When he needs to do more than just ice the puck, he struggles. When he has to play in the middle of the ice in the defensive zone instead of along the boards like he does on the PK, he struggles. More importantly, when he gets significant minutes, he struggles.

As for Holland, putting him on the 3rd line is hardly handing him anything. I'm not talking about giving up 20 minutes a night. I'm talking about putting him a situation where he's more likely to succeed given his skill set and the type of player he is. It's not just about "what he deserves," it's about slotting players in roles where they're going to contribute most efficiently. With McClement, that's on the 4th line. With Holland, we don't really know yet, but, it's time to find out - and no one is going to be able to figure it out with him getting 5 minutes a night on the 4th line playing with a couple knuckle draggers.

 

[Kin]

To a point, sure, but, at the same time, I wouldn't call giving a 22 year old offensive forward 5 minutes a night on the 4th properly bringing him along, either. Giving him 12 or so somewhat sheltered minutes a night on a 3rd line, on the other hand, could definitely be.

There's no one right or wrong way to bring someone along though. I agree on the five minutes thing but I think that as long as there's room for legitimate advancement that's based on his play rather than team need I think a lot of good players have broken in on a 4th line.

I would love to see your list of 5:00 a night players who turn into useful scoring players.

The highlighted part, it's good readin'

 

[bustaheims]

There's no one right or wrong way to bring someone along though. I agree on the five minutes thing but I think that as long as there's room for legitimate advancement that's based on his play rather than team need I think a lot of good players have broken in on a 4th line.

Not very many offensive players get brought in on the 4th line because most teams recognize that the role that line plays is generally not a good fit for a young offensive minded player. That's a line generally reserved for PK specialists, goons and guys without much upside. Guys of Holland's character tend start on the 3rd line - a line where they hopefully learn more defensive responsibility while also being provided with some offensive talent to work with.

 

[gunnar36]

The weakness that I see (and maybe Carlyle as well) in Hollands game is that he is very content to play on the perimeter and needs to be a little more assertive in terms of retrieving pucks in traffic and taking the puck to the net since he does have the frame to do so but isn't really utilizing it yet.

I'mnot sure I agree. When I've paid closer attention to him specifically, I've seen him go into corners to win puck battles and be very aggressive in terms of his defensive coverage.

I have also noticed him do those things, but I think on an average shift McClement would be rubbing shoulders more frequently then he would.  For him to show he belongs in this league he needs to bring a little more aggression since he does have all the other tools to be here.

 

[TML fan]

To a point, sure, but, at the same time, I wouldn't call giving a 22 year old offensive forward 5 minutes a night on the 4th properly bringing him along, either. Giving him 12 or so somewhat sheltered minutes a night on a 3rd line, on the other hand, could definitely be.

There's no one right or wrong way to bring someone along though. I agree on the five minutes thing but I think that as long as there's room for legitimate advancement that's based on his play rather than team need I think a lot of good players have broken in on a 4th line.

I would love to see your list of 5:00 a night players who turn into useful scoring players.

In his 7 games as a member of the Leafs, Holland has been under 10 minutes twice.

 

[lamajama]

The one thing that is apparent is that performance seems to rarely see a reward. The fact that Carlyle insists on playing Orr, FML, Fraser, Ranger et al must be pretty discouraging to a player trying to earn a shot.

 

[TML fan]

The one thing that is apparent is that performance seems to rarely see a reward. The fact that Carlyle insists on playing Orr, FML, Fraser, Ranger et al must be pretty discouraging to a player trying to earn a shot.

I'll admit that it's pretty confusing to keep Orr and McLaren when you already have guys in the system who can fight and who are also better hockey players.

 

[Kin]

Not very many offensive players get brought in on the 4th line because most teams recognize that the role that line plays is generally not a good fit for a young offensive minded player. That's a line generally reserved for PK specialists, goons and guys without much upside. Guys of Holland's character tend start on the 3rd line - a line where they hopefully learn more defensive responsibility while also being provided with some offensive talent to work with.

Ok, but let's say that I agree that most players with offensive upside start on the third line. There's still a big gap between "Most players start in a different position, therefore Carlyle is bucking convention with Holland" and "The only right way to develop a player is in a different position, therefore Carlyle is a big dummy dumbpants".