General Leafs Talk v2.0

[TML fan]

McClement's offensive woes are impossible to ignore, but I think his struggles are entirely overstated. As for Holland, I really fail to see in what way he deserves anything. He's played 7 games.

I don't think they're overstated by most people, at all. When he needs to do more than just ice the puck, he struggles. When he has to play in the middle of the ice in the defensive zone instead of along the boards like he does on the PK, he struggles. More importantly, when he gets significant minutes, he struggles.

As for Holland, putting him on the 3rd line is hardly handing him anything. I'm not talking about giving up 20 minutes a night. I'm talking about putting him a situation where he's more likely to succeed given his skill set and the type of player he is. It's not just about "what he deserves," it's about slotting players in roles where they're going to contribute most efficiently. With McClement, that's on the 4th line. With Holland, we don't really know yet, but, it's time to find out - and no one is going to be able to figure it out with him getting 5 minutes a night on the 4th line playing with a couple knuckle draggers.

First of all, he doesn't play 5 minutes a night. He plays 11. You're making up numbers to try to make a point. Stop it.

Holland has 1 point averaging 11 minutes a night. McClement has 2 points averaging just over a minute more at even strength. McClement plays almost 4 minutes more than Holland JUST on the PK. So, by those numbers, as sad as they are, McClement still looks like the better option on paper. Now, you're also asking Holland to soak up those defensive minutes you claim McClement, widely regarded as one of the better defensive forwards in the league, does not do very well, and I gotta tell you, it's still not making a lot of sense to me at this point...

Finally, throw in the fact that Holland has only played SEVEN games as a member of this team, is 22 years old and still hasn't proven anything, in any role, on any team at THIS level, and once again, I'm going to side with the veteran.

 

[bustaheims]

Holland has 1 point averaging 11 minutes a night. McClement has 2 points averaging just over a minute more at even strength. McClement plays almost 4 minutes more than Holland JUST on the PK. So, by those numbers, as sad as they are, McClement still looks like the better option on paper.

Holland has his point in 78:42 of ES/PP ice time. McClement has 2 in 356:14 of ES/PP ice time. So he has double the points in almost 5 times the non-PK ice time. Wanna re-think who the better option is for an offensive role? No one's talking about taking McClement out of the lineup or off the PK - just putting not he 4th line at even strength, which is where he belongs.

Now, you're also asking Holland to soak up those defensive minutes you claim McClement, widely regarded as one of the better defensive forwards in the league, does not do very well, and I gotta tell you, it's still not making a lot of sense to me at this point?

He's not widely regarded as one of the best defensive forwards in the league. He's widely regarded as one of the best penalty killing forwards in the league. There's a significant difference between those distinctions, and with good cause. McClement's 5 on 5 defence as a centre has been average, at best, this season.

Finally, throw in the fact that Holland has only played SEVEN games as a member of this team, is 22 years old and still hasn't proven anything, in any role, on any team at THIS level, and once again, I'm going to side with the veteran.

He hasn't proven anything because he hasn't been given the opportunity to prove anything. He's been shifted around, played sparingly, scratched frequently, etc. He has yet to given an opportunity to develop any kind of rhythm with the team to give him a legitimate opportunity to show what he can do. Quite frankly, I don't care the McClement is a veteran and Holland's a rookie. McClement should not be playing anything other than 4th line minutes at even strength, regardless of who the other options are and what sort of experience they have. You can side with the veteran all you want, you're still putting him a role he's not cut out for. As for Holland, the Leafs (well, more specifically, Carlyle) need to give him an actual opportunity to show what he can do. Give him an extended look with players that have actual talent and let's see what the kid has. He certainly can't be any worse offensively than McClement has been and I can't imagine he'll be significantly different defensively at even strength, either.

 

[L K]

To a point, sure, but, at the same time, I wouldn't call giving a 22 year old offensive forward 5 minutes a night on the 4th properly bringing him along, either. Giving him 12 or so somewhat sheltered minutes a night on a 3rd line, on the other hand, could definitely be.

There's no one right or wrong way to bring someone along though. I agree on the five minutes thing but I think that as long as there's room for legitimate advancement that's based on his play rather than team need I think a lot of good players have broken in on a 4th line.

I would love to see your list of 5:00 a night players who turn into useful scoring players.

The highlighted part, it's good readin'

Nah, I saw it.  Just more of an echo.  4th line can be fine as long as you advance their play.  But given that Carlyle only plays 3 lines, there isn't a developmental advantage to that.  Beyond that, the majority of his 4th lines only play against other 4th lines so it isn't like he is playing against competition that is significantly better than top AHL lines.

 

[TML fan]

Holland has 1 point averaging 11 minutes a night. McClement has 2 points averaging just over a minute more at even strength. McClement plays almost 4 minutes more than Holland JUST on the PK. So, by those numbers, as sad as they are, McClement still looks like the better option on paper.

Holland has his point in 78:42 of ES/PP ice time. McClement has 2 in 356:14 of ES/PP ice time. So he has double the points in almost 5 times the non-PK ice time. Wanna re-think who the better option is for an offensive role? No one's talking about taking McClement out of the lineup or off the PK - just putting not he 4th line at even strength, which is where he belongs.

Now, you're also asking Holland to soak up those defensive minutes you claim McClement, widely regarded as one of the better defensive forwards in the league, does not do very well, and I gotta tell you, it's still not making a lot of sense to me at this point?

He's not widely regarded as one of the best defensive forwards in the league. He's widely regarded as one of the best penalty killing forwards in the league. There's a significant difference between those distinctions, and with good cause. McClement's 5 on 5 defence as a centre has been average, at best, this season.

Finally, throw in the fact that Holland has only played SEVEN games as a member of this team, is 22 years old and still hasn't proven anything, in any role, on any team at THIS level, and once again, I'm going to side with the veteran.

He hasn't proven anything because he hasn't been given the opportunity to prove anything. He's been shifted around, played sparingly, scratched frequently, etc. He has yet to given an opportunity to develop any kind of rhythm with the team to give him a legitimate opportunity to show what he can do. Quite frankly, I don't care the McClement is a veteran and Holland's a rookie. McClement should not be playing anything other than 4th line minutes at even strength, regardless of who the other options are and what sort of experience they have. You can side with the veteran all you want, you're still putting him a role he's not cut out for. As for Holland, the Leafs (well, more specifically, Carlyle) need to give him an actual opportunity to show what he can do. Give him an extended look with players that have actual talent and let's see what the kid has. He certainly can't be any worse offensively than McClement has been and I can't imagine he'll be significantly different defensively at even strength, either.

A) McClement doesn't play an offensive role. The question is, can Holland play a defensive role with the extra minutes? And yeah, McClement has more total ice time because he's played more games. You're talking about "5 minutes a night", not total ice time. Pick one and stick with it.

B) Has McClement's 5 on 5 defence been average? Or has the overall team defence been so poor that it makes McClement's defensive play look bad? Again, he is one player out of 5. He can't do it all by himself. I disagree completely with the idea that McClement has been playing poorly. There is a much deeper reason why the Leafs can't play defence.

C) he hasn't been given an opportunity to prove anything because he hasn't EARNED it yet. Once again, he hasn't sufficiently demonstrated a level of consistency in a minimal, low pressure role. He hasn't done anything to justify an increase in ice time and responsibility. But how can he do that, you say? I don't know, perhaps by playing more than 7 games? What if he can't score and is worse defensively? Now you're just throwing a liability out there for 16+ minutes a night who can't do anything at either end of the ice, with no justification other than "well the scouts said he was good". The least he can do is prove he can be responsible defensively by demonstrating it over a longer period of time in a less important role. McClement is there because, over the course of 600+ games, he's proven he can handle it.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

To a point, sure, but, at the same time, I wouldn't call giving a 22 year old offensive forward 5 minutes a night on the 4th properly bringing him along, either. Giving him 12 or so somewhat sheltered minutes a night on a 3rd line, on the other hand, could definitely be.

There's no one right or wrong way to bring someone along though. I agree on the five minutes thing but I think that as long as there's room for legitimate advancement that's based on his play rather than team need I think a lot of good players have broken in on a 4th line.

I would love to see your list of 5:00 a night players who turn into useful scoring players.

The highlighted part, it's good readin'

Nah, I saw it.  Just more of an echo.  4th line can be fine as long as you advance their play.  But given that Carlyle only plays 3 lines, there isn't a developmental advantage to that.  Beyond that, the majority of his 4th lines only play against other 4th lines so it isn't like he is playing against competition that is significantly better than top AHL lines.

Holland's Time on Ice so far with the Leafs:

11:43
12:44
13:21
18:01
4:55
12:11
5:49

As players return he will see a decrease in time. Let's be honest, he's not even on the team with a healthy Bozak or Bolland.

 

[Redleaf]

To a point, sure, but, at the same time, I wouldn't call giving a 22 year old offensive forward 5 minutes a night on the 4th properly bringing him along, either. Giving him 12 or so somewhat sheltered minutes a night on a 3rd line, on the other hand, could definitely be.

There's no one right or wrong way to bring someone along though. I agree on the five minutes thing but I think that as long as there's room for legitimate advancement that's based on his play rather than team need I think a lot of good players have broken in on a 4th line.

I would love to see your list of 5:00 a night players who turn into useful scoring players.

The highlighted part, it's good readin'

Nah, I saw it.  Just more of an echo.  4th line can be fine as long as you advance their play.  But given that Carlyle only plays 3 lines, there isn't a developmental advantage to that.  Beyond that, the majority of his 4th lines only play against other 4th lines so it isn't like he is playing against competition that is significantly better than top AHL lines.

Holland's Time on Ice so far with the Leafs:

11:43
12:44
13:21
18:01
4:55
12:11
5:49

As players return he will see a decrease in time. Let's be honest, he's not even on the team with a healthy Bozak or Bolland.

Holland looks like he could be a pretty good NHL player and he's only 22. But you're right, when everybody returns from IR, he's the odd man out. I think he a fill-in for a while, but will eventually find his way on this team.

 

[Highlander]

Holland could be a steal, has the speed, vision and defensive awarness to make him a very good two way player.  I would like to see him between JVR and Kessel for a few games and the have Kadri between Lupul and Clarkson.
Please sit Fraser and Fraser.  Hope Liles has a great game even if it is just to showcase him for a decent draft pick in trade.

 

[Corn Flake]

Not very many offensive players get brought in on the 4th line because most teams recognize that the role that line plays is generally not a good fit for a young offensive minded player. That's a line generally reserved for PK specialists, goons and guys without much upside. Guys of Holland's character tend start on the 3rd line - a line where they hopefully learn more defensive responsibility while also being provided with some offensive talent to work with.

Ok, but let's say that I agree that most players with offensive upside start on the third line. There's still a big gap between "Most players start in a different position, therefore Carlyle is bucking convention with Holland" and "The only right way to develop a player is in a different position, therefore Carlyle is a big dummy dumbpants".

This.

I think a lot of this needs perspective that Carlyle isn't doing things that aren't done pretty much the same way on most other teams. 

If you want to talk opportunity, Holland's 1st game was on the top line!  How is that squelching the guy's ability?  Sure he's bouncing around from line to line right now but I think we need to give it some time before we proclaim the guy as being "ruined" by the coach.

 

[Kin]

Nah, I saw it.  Just more of an echo.  4th line can be fine as long as you advance their play.  But given that Carlyle only plays 3 lines, there isn't a developmental advantage to that.  Beyond that, the majority of his 4th lines only play against other 4th lines so it isn't like he is playing against competition that is significantly better than top AHL lines.

Well, it would obviously depend on information we don't have then but given that I agree the notion that young players should probably get more than 5 minutes a night which, as has pointed out, is emphatically not the case with Holland we're now just differing on how useful it is for a player to be on the 4th line if their competition is other 4th lines.

I don't specifically know the answer to that but if you asked for my list of good players who've broken in on a 4th line, which I made some time back as I think this very question was being debated, I'd have a hunch that most of them were predominantly used in situations like that(and again, I'd imagine it's hyperbole to suggest that Holland has only seen time against opposing 4th lines).

 

[Bullfrog]

I think there's useful experience to be gained for Holland playing on the 4th line as opposed to not playing, but I think it would generally be better served on a scoring line.

 

[TML fan]

I think there's useful experience to be gained for Holland playing on the 4th line as opposed to not playing, but I think it would generally be better served on a scoring line.

Problem is Smith then, not McClement. Smith is playing well. Until that changes there's no room for Holland.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I think there's useful experience to be gained for Holland playing on the 4th line as opposed to not playing, but I think it would generally be better served on a scoring line.

I agree, I would take advantage of having him up while the injuries are ongoing.

Carlyle hasn't been using Smith regularly (mind boggling I know), he can play on the 3rd line I think, so why not play Holland on the 2nd line and give him some real minutes?

Kadri
Holland
Smith
McClement

That looks balanced down the middle, or at least alright, given the injury situation.

 

[mr grieves]

I think there's useful experience to be gained for Holland playing on the 4th line as opposed to not playing, but I think it would generally be better served on a scoring line.

Problem is Smith then, not McClement. Smith is playing well. Until that changes there's no room for Holland.

Not sure if you've been around the last month, but the 'problem' isn't Holland's, it's the Leafs'. The experiment of running with two lines that can score hasn't been helping the team's record. Why not have have three?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Not sure if you've been around the last month, but the 'problem' isn't Holland's, it's the Leafs'. The experiment of running with two lines that can score hasn't been helping the team's record. Why not have have three?

Burke came into with a top-6/bottom-6 mentality and eventually realized it didn't work anymore. He changed. Nonis took over and he and Carlyle put that system back in. Once again it's not working but they seem more stubborn than Burke (which is really saying something).

 

[Kin]

Burke came into with a top-6/bottom-6 mentality and eventually realized it didn't work anymore. He changed. Nonis took over and he and Carlyle put that system back in. Once again it's not working but they seem more stubborn than Burke (which is really saying something).

Is that really what's happened? The team, as it was constructed, looked like some combination of this in it's top 9

Kessel-Bozak-JVR
Lupul-Kadri-Clarkson
Kulemin-Bolland-Raymond

Is that really a top 6/bottom 6 in terms of construction? That looks like three pretty good scoring lines or, at least, three lines that can contribute offensively. Admittedly, Carlyle has tended towards using one of his top three lines in more of a defensive role than the others but I think that's largely unavoidable and that those lines inability to generate offense has been a failure of the players as opposed to construction.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Is that really a top 6/bottom 6 in terms of construction? That looks like three pretty good scoring lines or, at least, three lines that can contribute offensively. Admittedly, Carlyle has tended towards using one of his top three lines in more of a defensive role than the others but I think that's largely unavoidable and that those lines inability to generate offense has been a failure of the players as opposed to construction.

I suppose I shouldn't have blamed Nonis there. You're right in that he has provided the team with enough forwards to have 3 scoring lines. But I would argue even last season we had the talent to play 3 scoring lines and we didn't do it. The Grabbo unit wasn't just a scoring line that was meant to play defensive as well, it was a shut down group. And it worked then largely because Kessel and Kadri were tearing it up offensively.

And the same thing is happened right now. I know there's injuries, but there's still enough personnel in this organization to ice three potentially effective scoring lines and he hasn't really even given that a shot. Every time he plays McClement on the 3rd line over a Smith or a Holland he's saying he wants his top 6 forwards to provide offence and his bottom 6 to provide defence. It worked last season, but it's not working right now and he refuses to adapt.

 

[Kin]

I suppose I shouldn't have blamed Nonis there. You're right in that he has provided the team with enough forwards to have 3 scoring lines. But I would argue even last season we had the talent to play 3 scoring lines and we didn't do it. The Grabbo unit wasn't just a scoring line that was meant to play defensive as well, it was a shut down group. And it worked then largely because Kessel and Kadri were tearing it up offensively.

Yeah, I don't know how much I buy into that categorization of the Grabo line. I feel like they were still a group that got offensive opportunities(especially Grabo himself) but were also expected to function as a go-to unit defensively which, like I said, I think is largely unavoidable in today's NHL. You want to have a line that you rely on in defensive situations and I don't think that's going to be a 4th line, regardless of who you have there.

That they weren't particularly effective in that role is, again, not something I put on Carlyle.

And the same thing is happened right now. I know there's injuries, but there's still enough personnel in this organization to ice three potentially effective scoring lines and he hasn't really even given that a shot. Every time he plays McClement on the 3rd line over a Smith or a Holland he's saying he wants his top 6 forwards to provide offence and his bottom 6 to provide defence. It worked last season, but it's not working right now and he refuses to adapt.

Well, I feel like it becomes a fundamentally different question with what they're trying to do now. Right now they're trying to make a patchwork line-up with what they have and the question they're posed with is should they try to use what talent they have within the organization to try and create the closest facsimile of their original plans or is it to take a guy like McClement and recognize what he's good at and just prioritize the role a little more.

I understand the argument of grabbing guys from the AHL and trying to hobble together a "scoring" line from them but honestly, I'd be more willing to jump on that bandwagon if I was at all impressed with what I've seen from that group to date.

 

[TML fan]

I think there's useful experience to be gained for Holland playing on the 4th line as opposed to not playing, but I think it would generally be better served on a scoring line.

Problem is Smith then, not McClement. Smith is playing well. Until that changes there's no room for Holland.

Not sure if you've been around the last month, but the 'problem' isn't Holland's, it's the Leafs'. The experiment of running with two lines that can score hasn't been helping the team's record. Why not have have three?

Oh yeah, THAT'S their problem. Not enough scoring lines.

 

[mr grieves]

I think there's useful experience to be gained for Holland playing on the 4th line as opposed to not playing, but I think it would generally be better served on a scoring line.

Problem is Smith then, not McClement. Smith is playing well. Until that changes there's no room for Holland.

Not sure if you've been around the last month, but the 'problem' isn't Holland's, it's the Leafs'. The experiment of running with two lines that can score hasn't been helping the team's record. Why not have have three?

Oh yeah, THAT'S their problem. Not enough scoring lines.

Yes. It is:

On the flip side, if you look at depth players and the defence, the Leafs are dead last:

GPG from rest of lineup
1. Phoenix    1.35
2. Boston    1.33
3. Chicago    1.21
4. St. Louis    1.16
5. San Jose    1.15
   
30. Toronto    0.59

source: http://theleafsnation.com/2013/12/2/fixing-offensive-woes

 

[bustaheims]

Oh yeah, THAT'S their problem. Not enough scoring lines.

The best way to play defence it to keep the puck in the other team's end.