General Leafs Talk v2.0

[mr grieves]

Oh yeah, THAT'S their problem. Not enough scoring lines.

The best way to play defence it to keep the puck in the other team's end.

Something that Smith and, for all his lack of goals and assists, Clarkson are very good at. And, I think, it's something Holland, Kulimen, and one of Raymond and Lupul would be good at too. McClement, however, is not, and he really shouldn't see much ice time until the PK.

 

[Bullfrog]

I understand the argument of grabbing guys from the AHL and trying to hobble together a "scoring" line from them but honestly, I'd be more willing to jump on that bandwagon if I was at all impressed with what I've seen from that group to date.

No love for Smith? He's been playing very well.

 

[TML fan]

I think there's useful experience to be gained for Holland playing on the 4th line as opposed to not playing, but I think it would generally be better served on a scoring line.

Problem is Smith then, not McClement. Smith is playing well. Until that changes there's no room for Holland.

Not sure if you've been around the last month, but the 'problem' isn't Holland's, it's the Leafs'. The experiment of running with two lines that can score hasn't been helping the team's record. Why not have have three?

Oh yeah, THAT'S their problem. Not enough scoring lines.

Yes. It is:

On the flip side, if you look at depth players and the defence, the Leafs are dead last:

GPG from rest of lineup
1. Phoenix    1.35
2. Boston    1.33
3. Chicago    1.21
4. St. Louis    1.16
5. San Jose    1.15
   
30. Toronto    0.59

source: http://theleafsnation.com/2013/12/2/fixing-offensive-woes

That's a neat set of facts. Doesn't explain anything, but thanks for taking the time to look that up.

 

[TML fan]

Oh yeah, THAT'S their problem. Not enough scoring lines.

The best way to play defence it to keep the puck in the other team's end.

Something that Smith and, for all his lack of goals and assists, Clarkson are very good at. And, I think, it's something Holland, Kulimen, and one of Raymond and Lupul would be good at

Then how come nobody actually does it?

 

[mr grieves]

That's a neat set of facts. Doesn't explain anything, but thanks for taking the time to look that up.

It tells you the Leafs don't have enough secondary scoring to win a lot of hockey games.

 

[TML fan]

That's a neat set of facts. Doesn't explain anything, but thanks for taking the time to look that up.

It tells you the Leafs don't have enough secondary scoring to win a lot of hockey games.

It doesn't tell you why.

 

[mr grieves]

That's a neat set of facts. Doesn't explain anything, but thanks for taking the time to look that up.

It tells you the Leafs don't have enough secondary scoring to win a lot of hockey games.

It doesn't tell you why.

"The Leafs are one of the highest scoring teams in the NHL if you only looked at the best players, and they are dead last if you looked at everybody else. I often have my complaints about the Colt Knorr's and Jerred Smithson's of the world derided in the comments because "they only play five minutes a game! They're just energy guys! They aren't supposed to score!" but the problem is when you set a lineup full of players that don't shoot and score, you can't act surprised when you don't shoot and score goals."

 

[TML fan]

All that tells me is that their best players are just that good, and they can succeed despite the defensive system they employ that sees them spending the majority of games played in their own end. It's pretty hard to take shots and score goals from the defensive zone.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

That's a neat set of facts. Doesn't explain anything, but thanks for taking the time to look that up.

It tells you the Leafs don't have enough secondary scoring to win a lot of hockey games.

It doesn't tell you why.

"The Leafs are one of the highest scoring teams in the NHL if you only looked at the best players, and they are dead last if you looked at everybody else. I often have my complaints about the Colt Knorr's and Jerred Smithson's of the world derided in the comments because "they only play five minutes a game! They're just energy guys! They aren't supposed to score!" but the problem is when you set a lineup full of players that don't shoot and score, you can't act surprised when you don't shoot and score goals."

Ya see, I have a hard time taking things as gospel when they try to make a funny by spelling the guys name wrong.....Clever!

 

[mr grieves]

"The Leafs are one of the highest scoring teams in the NHL if you only looked at the best players, and they are dead last if you looked at everybody else. I often have my complaints about the Colt Knorr's and Jerred Smithson's of the world derided in the comments because "they only play five minutes a game! They're just energy guys! They aren't supposed to score!" but the problem is when you set a lineup full of players that don't shoot and score, you can't act surprised when you don't shoot and score goals."

Ya see, I have a hard time taking things as gospel when they try to make a funny by spelling the guys name wrong.....Clever!

As gospel, eh? Let's leave rhetorical style to the side for a moment: exactly how much of a leap of faith is it to believe that Colton Orr, Jay McClement, Frazer McLaren, and Jarred Smithson are going to chip in more goals than a good team's 3rd and 4th liners? There'd be the miracle of the loaves and fishes.

 

[Kin]

I understand the argument of grabbing guys from the AHL and trying to hobble together a "scoring" line from them but honestly, I'd be more willing to jump on that bandwagon if I was at all impressed with what I've seen from that group to date.

No love for Smith? He's been playing very well.

He's been perfectly acceptable as a fill in but if Bolland and Bozak were healthy I wouldn't be conflicted about his spot in the line-up.

 

[Kin]

That's a neat set of facts. Doesn't explain anything, but thanks for taking the time to look that up.

It tells you the Leafs don't have enough secondary scoring to win a lot of hockey games.

Well, it does and it doesn't. On the one hand it certainly says that the Leafs aren't getting as much from their bottom 6 as you'd like, although given the constitution of the team's 4th line and the fact that they've been missing 3 forwards pretty much the whole year it's not that surprising. More than that though that guys like Kulemin and Clarkson haven't been producing and are falling outside of that consideration doesn't really seem to be a product of the team lacking "depth".

But a far more important caveat though is that the number also accounts for the terrible production the Leafs have gotten from their defense which, quite frankly, seems like a separate issue and one that, again, seems more attributable to the lousy play of those defenseman more than anything else.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

"The Leafs are one of the highest scoring teams in the NHL if you only looked at the best players, and they are dead last if you looked at everybody else. I often have my complaints about the Colt Knorr's and Jerred Smithson's of the world derided in the comments because "they only play five minutes a game! They're just energy guys! They aren't supposed to score!" but the problem is when you set a lineup full of players that don't shoot and score, you can't act surprised when you don't shoot and score goals."

Ya see, I have a hard time taking things as gospel when they try to make a funny by spelling the guys name wrong.....Clever!

As gospel, eh? Let's leave rhetorical style to the side for a moment: exactly how much of a leap of faith is it to believe that Colton Orr, Jay McClement, Frazer McLaren, and Jarred Smithson are going to chip in more goals than a good team's 3rd and 4th liners? There'd be the miracle of the loaves and fishes.

You see though, that's not the teams 3rd line. Not if they're healthy. The 3rd line consists of Bolland, Raymond and Kulemin if the team is healthy. I mean, Kulemin isn't contributing worth a damn but no one can tell me that coming into the season they wouldn't love to have a 3rd line with those players. Especially with the way Raymond has played. His numbers are being attributed to the top 2 lines, but let's be honest, he was brought in to be on the 3rd line and injuries removed, that's where he'd be.

So, saying that that it's the line up that's at fault for the low scoring from the bottom 6 is true, it isn't really the team's 'real bottom 6' so it doesn't mean much....especially from a blogger that thinks it's clever to change players names to make his friends in class laugh.

 

[mr grieves]

But a far more important caveat though is that the number also accounts for the terrible production the Leafs have gotten from their defense which, quite frankly, seems like a separate issue and one that, again, seems more attributable to the lousy play of those defenseman more than anything else.

Well, apart from where it comes from (if you can't establish zone time and get the puck back to the D, they're not going to score), the defense is what pushes that combined number to the bottom of the league: 


SCORING FROM DEFENSE
25. NY Islanders -- .26 G/gm -- 11% of all goals
26. Minnesota -- .26 G/gm -- 11%
27. Detroit -- .26 G/gm -- 9%
28. Philadelphia -- .24 G/gm -- 11%
29. Montreal -- .23 G/gm -- 8%
30. Toronto -- .13 G/gm -- 5%


So, yeah. That's the bigger problem. But the bottom six forward scoring is in the basement too:

SCORING FROM BOTTOM SIX
25. Toronto -- .47 G/gm -- 17% of all goals
26. Pittsburgh -- .45 G/gm -- 15%
27. San Jose -- .41 G/gm -- 12%
28. Columbus -- .41 G/gm -- 17%
29. Buffalo -- .37 G/gm -- 23%
30. Tampa Bay -- .31 G/gm -- 12%


And, at the top end of the line up, of all teams, Toronto gets the greatest proportion of its total goals (78%) from its top 6. Others nearby: Tampa Bay (77%), Pittsburgh (71%), San Jose (69%). Needless to say, Toronto's roster isn't as cap-heavy in front as those teams, so one would expect them to have more talent further down the line up.

 

[Kin]

Well, apart from where it comes from (if you can't establish zone time and get the puck back to the D, they're not going to score), the defense is what pushes that combined number to the bottom of the league: 

Sure, but a lot of that inability to establish zone time is on the defense as well. From what I've seen they've been almost universally poor in contributing to any sort of cycling game, stopping the puck or just getting the puck out of their own zone. Again, I feel like it's their poor play that is contributing a great deal not just to their own lousy production but to the team's.

But the bottom six forward scoring is in the basement too:

Well, basement adjacent anyway. Regardless, I agree that they need more production from their 3rd line, I just don't think that's a failure of design. Kulemin and Clarkson's poor play is on them.

 

[mr grieves]

But the bottom six forward scoring is in the basement too:

Well, basement adjacent anyway. Regardless, I agree that they need more production from their 3rd line, I just don't think that's a failure of design. Kulemin and Clarkson's poor play is on them.

Kulemin ended the first period with a nice sequence of moves to keep possession deep in the Boston zone. He made a nice pass to the man in front, who back handed a shot into the side of the net.

Kulemin and Clarkson haven't be great, but they've both been pretty good, doing what they can to establish the sort of cycle Carlyle and the bloggers want. I think there'd be better results from the third line if there were someone with hands more regularly on that line.

 

[Kin]

Kulemin ended the first period with a nice sequence of moves to keep possession deep in the Boston zone. He made a nice pass to the man in front, who back handed a shot into the side of the net.

Sure but anecdotally I'm pretty sure I could respond with any number of cases of both guys harmlessly frittering away scoring chances of their own.

Kulemin and Clarkson haven't be great, but they've both been pretty good, doing what they can to establish the sort of cycle Carlyle and the bloggers want.

Bloggers opinions aside, there's still a gap between being good on the cycle and being able to put the puck in the net which, again, is where the Leafs need them to contribute.

 

[mr grieves]

Kulemin and Clarkson haven't be great, but they've both been pretty good, doing what they can to establish the sort of cycle Carlyle and the bloggers want.

Bloggers opinions aside, there's still a gap between being good on the cycle and being able to put the puck in the net which, again, is where the Leafs need them to contribute.

Well, sure. But when they're not, it's probably time to do something, like mix up lines or alter the game plan.

 

[Kin]

Well, sure. But when they're not, it's probably time to do something, like mix up lines or alter the game plan.

I'd agree with that if it weren't for the fact that, as you've referred to, the top 6 are actually going gangbusters. I don't think the smart thing to do is to mess with what's working in order to jumpstart two guys who, quite frankly, aren't playing as well as they should be and really just need to play better.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Some stats for comparison purposes for everyone courtesy of James Mirtle:

@mirtle
The mindboggling thing for Toronto is its 5-on-5 goals against and save percentage are actually better during their 17-game slide!