Goaltending conundrum

[AvroArrow]

Think there's a chance we could snatch up Martin Biron from NYR?  He's exactly the kind of guy we need - a backup who's capable of filling in as a starter.

 

[L K]

Think there's a chance we could snatch up Martin Biron from NYR?  He's exactly the kind of guy we need - a backup who's capable of filling in as a starter.

No.  They are playing really well with an abysmal defense, they aren't going to trade away their backup to appease an Eastern Conference rival when they are clearly trying to win.

As for Scrivens, SV% is great and all, but those first two goals are on him.  He butchered playing the puck and was out of position on the 1st goal.  On the second goal he gave up on the play and wasn't in position to make the save (a guy being on the ice next to you does not count as something that prevents you from staying focused on the play Greg Millen).

If that was Gustavsson, Wilson comes out talking about how the team can't get a save and how we outshot the Predators by X amount and any shot by the opposition goes in our net.  Scrivens made maybe 2 or three good saves, one of which was that massive stop coming across the net, but overall I thought he had another one of those shaky games in a game where the Leafs carried the play all night except for when they were on the PK (where again, they actually played quite well at limiting Nashville's ability to shoot).

Scriven's is younger so you don't want to come down hard on the guy, but he has not been a .940 goaltender.  You don't just cherry pick out his terrible game against Boston, or when he came in and was awful against Florida in relief of Gustavsson.  5 of his 7 appearances, he has played well. 

He gave up two bad goals in the Nashville game and Schenn saved him from a 3rd bad goal, he gave up two bad goals in the Phoenix game (one of which was a giveaway when he went and played the puck) wasn't bad in the Ottawa game but gave up 3 goals on 22 shots, carried the team in the St. Louis game, and carried the team in the Columbus game.

He's not the reason the Leafs sucked before the past two games, but he has not been great and there definitely seems to be a big double standard on performances.

 

[Erndog]

Think there's a chance we could snatch up Martin Biron from NYR?  He's exactly the kind of guy we need - a backup who's capable of filling in as a starter.

No.  They are playing really well with an abysmal defense, they aren't going to trade away their backup to appease an Eastern Conference rival when they are clearly trying to win.

Agreed.

I mentioned him earlier in the thread as the perfect guy to sign this summer to backup James.  Biron is actually a pseudo-No 1 on probably a number of teams.

Reimer-Biron next season, with Scrivens and Rynnas/Owuya in the A.

 

[Bender]

Think there's a chance we could snatch up Martin Biron from NYR?  He's exactly the kind of guy we need - a backup who's capable of filling in as a starter.

No.  They are playing really well with an abysmal defense, they aren't going to trade away their backup to appease an Eastern Conference rival when they are clearly trying to win.

Agreed.

I mentioned him earlier in the thread as the perfect guy to sign this summer to backup James.  Biron is actually a pseudo-No 1 on probably a number of teams.

Reimer-Biron next season, with Scrivens and Rynnas/Owuya in the A.

At this rate Rynnas will drop on the depth chart with Owuya coming up. Owuya's playing very well in his few games in the A so far.

 

[Corn Flake]

It is just under the system the Leafs are using right now.  It doesn't matter who is in net, the result will be the same.

Yeah. A decent quality goalie will win most of their games in this system, while a mediocre to poor one will not.

True, but I look at a game like last night where the Nashville system is heavily defensive but it took an elite goalie playing almost out of his mind to save their bacon.  Kessel & Lupul took that highly touted defense apart until they shut things down in the 3rd.  If Rinne wasn't standing on his head the Leafs would have had 4 goals by then and it wouldn't have mattered.

My point is that yes defensive systems make goalies look better but really really good goalies make some systems look better than maybe they really are - and worst case there are nights when the best back-end teams need the goalie to bail them out, like last night for Nashville.

 

[AvroArrow]

Think there's a chance we could snatch up Martin Biron from NYR?  He's exactly the kind of guy we need - a backup who's capable of filling in as a starter.

No.  They are playing really well with an abysmal defense, they aren't going to trade away their backup to appease an Eastern Conference rival when they are clearly trying to win.

Agreed.

I mentioned him earlier in the thread as the perfect guy to sign this summer to backup James.  Biron is actually a pseudo-No 1 on probably a number of teams.

Reimer-Biron next season, with Scrivens and Rynnas/Owuya in the A.

Right, but they don't "need" him.  They have Lundy who's probably going to play 70 games.  As long as we had something that would interest them to help them make their team better, I'm sure a deal could be made.  What it is they want, and whether we have it is up for debate.

 

[Redleaf]

We are in a bit of trouble now with the injuries beginning to mount. However, with mostly heathy troops I think we have a pretty solid team this year. Unless you think the start to the season was a complete fluke, we didn't begin the current slide until Reimer got hurt. With the goaltending he provided early on, it really tends to hide all the other warts on our team. (or any team in the league for that matter) With subpar or even average net minding,  the team really gets exposed quickly. I think we see a trade very soon to bring in another goalie who can hopefully play well enough to stop the bleeding until James is ready to return. As I've heard many times before, and I truly believe it; goaltending is everything. Look no further than the show Rinne put on last night. Does anyone think if we switched goalies with Nashville last night we would have won? I do.

 

[Corn Flake]

Think there's a chance we could snatch up Martin Biron from NYR?  He's exactly the kind of guy we need - a backup who's capable of filling in as a starter.

No.  They are playing really well with an abysmal defense, they aren't going to trade away their backup to appease an Eastern Conference rival when they are clearly trying to win.

Agreed.

I mentioned him earlier in the thread as the perfect guy to sign this summer to backup James.  Biron is actually a pseudo-No 1 on probably a number of teams.

Reimer-Biron next season, with Scrivens and Rynnas/Owuya in the A.

Right, but they don't "need" him.  They have Lundy who's probably going to play 70 games.  As long as we had something that would interest them to help them make their team better, I'm sure a deal could be made.  What it is they want, and whether we have it is up for debate.

What happened to Reimer is the very reason why NYR keeps a backup as capable as Biron... your starter goes down and you don't have someone to take over, you are in big trouble.

 

[bustaheims]

True, but I look at a game like last night where the Nashville system is heavily defensive but it took an elite goalie playing almost out of his mind to save their bacon.  Kessel & Lupul took that highly touted defense apart until they shut things down in the 3rd.  If Rinne wasn't standing on his head the Leafs would have had 4 goals by then and it wouldn't have mattered.

My point is that yes defensive systems make goalies look better but really really good goalies make some systems look better than maybe they really are - and worst case there are nights when the best back-end teams need the goalie to bail them out, like last night for Nashville.

Sure, but, last night was the exception rather than the rule. The goal is, obviously, the minimize the amount of games where you rely on your goaltender to essentially win it for you, and, for the most part, the Leafs have done a decent job of that when they've been getting quality goaltending. It is, unfortunately, a bit of a catch-22 - teams tend to play better when they're getting good goaltending and can afford to make more mistakes, and, as we've seen all too often, when they're not getting good goaltending, they tend to make more mistakes that they can't afford to make.

 

[Courtnall]

How long is Burke going to wait before he picks up a goalie? Till we're out of a playoff spot? Till we're 5-10 points out? Why wait and then play catch up? Is anyone really surprised were losing consistently........again? It's apparent the consensus here believes Reimer is our savior, but Reimer is not even skating. Time to move on as if he won't be back. Missing the playoffs this year is unacceptable after the start we had. GET IT DONE BURKE!

 

[L K]

True, but I look at a game like last night where the Nashville system is heavily defensive but it took an elite goalie playing almost out of his mind to save their bacon.  Kessel & Lupul took that highly touted defense apart until they shut things down in the 3rd.  If Rinne wasn't standing on his head the Leafs would have had 4 goals by then and it wouldn't have mattered.

My point is that yes defensive systems make goalies look better but really really good goalies make some systems look better than maybe they really are - and worst case there are nights when the best back-end teams need the goalie to bail them out, like last night for Nashville.

Sure, but, last night was the exception rather than the rule. The goal is, obviously, the minimize the amount of games where you rely on your goaltender to essentially win it for you, and, for the most part, the Leafs have done a decent job of that when they've been getting quality goaltending. It is, unfortunately, a bit of a catch-22 - teams tend to play better when they're getting good goaltending and can afford to make more mistakes, and, as we've seen all too often, when they're not getting good goaltending, they tend to make more mistakes that they can't afford to make.

The Vokoun effect.  Plays great most nights in Florida, but on a bad team so his SV% looks fine but his win total ends up being not very good.

 

[Bender]

It is just under the system the Leafs are using right now.  It doesn't matter who is in net, the result will be the same.

Yeah. A decent quality goalie will win most of their games in this system, while a mediocre to poor one will not.

True, but I look at a game like last night where the Nashville system is heavily defensive but it took an elite goalie playing almost out of his mind to save their bacon.  Kessel & Lupul took that highly touted defense apart until they shut things down in the 3rd.  If Rinne wasn't standing on his head the Leafs would have had 4 goals by then and it wouldn't have mattered.

My point is that yes defensive systems make goalies look better but really really good goalies make some systems look better than maybe they really are - and worst case there are nights when the best back-end teams need the goalie to bail them out, like last night for Nashville.

+11111111111111111111111111

 

[bustaheims]

markhmasters: James Reimer on the ice before the start of practice with goalie coach Francois Allaire. Has yet to take any shots, but in full equipment.

 

[Bender]

True, but I look at a game like last night where the Nashville system is heavily defensive but it took an elite goalie playing almost out of his mind to save their bacon.  Kessel & Lupul took that highly touted defense apart until they shut things down in the 3rd.  If Rinne wasn't standing on his head the Leafs would have had 4 goals by then and it wouldn't have mattered.

My point is that yes defensive systems make goalies look better but really really good goalies make some systems look better than maybe they really are - and worst case there are nights when the best back-end teams need the goalie to bail them out, like last night for Nashville.

Sure, but, last night was the exception rather than the rule. The goal is, obviously, the minimize the amount of games where you rely on your goaltender to essentially win it for you, and, for the most part, the Leafs have done a decent job of that when they've been getting quality goaltending. It is, unfortunately, a bit of a catch-22 - teams tend to play better when they're getting good goaltending and can afford to make more mistakes, and, as we've seen all too often, when they're not getting good goaltending, they tend to make more mistakes that they can't afford to make.

I think because we aren't the most offensively gifted team we have to take more risks in order to seek out rewards. But if you can't take a few chances in order to score and you know you can't rely on your goaltender to bail you out when the risk fails then what?

Cujo turning the tide in 98/99 with practically the same team that was abysmal in 97/98 is pointed to quite a lot as an example of goaltending carrying the team.

 

[Bender]

markhmasters: James Reimer on the ice before the start of practice with goalie coach Francois Allaire. Has yet to take any shots, but in full equipment.

I'm actually starting to get very nervous about James coming back. There's no way he's going to be in peak form right away... I'm thinking even if he does come back we won't see quality goaltending for another 5 games at least.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

markhmasters: James Reimer on the ice before the start of practice with goalie coach Francois Allaire. Has yet to take any shots, but in full equipment.

I'm actually starting to get very nervous about James coming back. There's no way he's going to be in peak form right away... I'm thinking even if he does come back we won't see quality goaltending for another 5 games at least.

This has panic button written all over it.

 

[Corn Flake]

markhmasters: James Reimer on the ice before the start of practice with goalie coach Francois Allaire. Has yet to take any shots, but in full equipment.

I'm actually starting to get very nervous about James coming back. There's no way he's going to be in peak form right away... I'm thinking even if he does come back we won't see quality goaltending for another 5 games at least.

Hopefully its not like Crosby, what with the never ending comeback.

 

[Boston Leaf]

thinking out loud but does anyone think the "new" NHL may not be suited for Allaires teachings?

 

[Oracle]

True, but I look at a game like last night where the Nashville system is heavily defensive but it took an elite goalie playing almost out of his mind to save their bacon.  Kessel & Lupul took that highly touted defense apart until they shut things down in the 3rd.  If Rinne wasn't standing on his head the Leafs would have had 4 goals by then and it wouldn't have mattered.

My point is that yes defensive systems make goalies look better but really really good goalies make some systems look better than maybe they really are - and worst case there are nights when the best back-end teams need the goalie to bail them out, like last night for Nashville.

Sure, but, last night was the exception rather than the rule. The goal is, obviously, the minimize the amount of games where you rely on your goaltender to essentially win it for you, and, for the most part, the Leafs have done a decent job of that when they've been getting quality goaltending. It is, unfortunately, a bit of a catch-22 - teams tend to play better when they're getting good goaltending and can afford to make more mistakes, and, as we've seen all too often, when they're not getting good goaltending, they tend to make more mistakes that they can't afford to make.

I don't know, maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention but I really didn't think it was that outstanding a goaltending performance. I was surprised as heck to hear the shot count was 39. Sure he made a couple of good saves but then so did Scrivens, I really didn't think he was the difference. Lots of shots from the outside and rebounds being cleared away = good defense. Makes the goalies life easy.

 

[Stebro]

thinking out loud but does anyone think the "new" NHL may not be suited for Allaires teachings?

I think that this is something that people in general overrate. A lot of people constantly use the argument "well, it worked in the past", "he's a proven winner", "he's done it before" etc. I think that people put too much value in the past, things change. One thing that worked for a few years ago, may not work at all today. I'm not saying that it's the case with Allaire, I'm just saying that it's just like with stocks, success in the past is not a guarantee for success in the future. So just because you've won in the past doesn't mean that it makes you a better candidate for winning today. It's about finding the best option for what's right NOW.