Jays Roster Discussion

[sickbeast]

Please show me one example.

Literally every single one of your posts in this discussion had at least one personal insult towards Nik:

Please go away and stick to hockey.  You don't know what you're talking about.  If you're going to disagree with someone at least get it right.

As usual you add nothing to the forum but your own inflated ego.

People like you truly are the scourge of the internet.  You're completely full of hot air.  Full of yourself.

All he did was disagree with an opinion you posted on an internet discussion forum in a completely reasonable manner and you reacted in a completely unreasonable manner. I don't care what kind of opinion you have of Nik or any other poster here, you can't launch into attacks like that simply because somebody thinks that you're wrong on the internet.

Seriously, if you can't handle people disagreeing with you then just leave. You've threatened to do it like half a dozen times anyway. Including like an hour ago.

You can't compare what I have done to his nonsense. I have simply become completely frustrated by the fact that he is a total idiot. He constantly disagrees baselessly with practically everything I say, I'm sure he does it to others. I'm not surprised to see you taking his side, either. You guys are like a pack of wolves, you have acted this way since I started posting here. It's like a fraternity. This is not a way to build any type of meaningful community. Birds of a feather flock together I guess. I actually really like many of the members here like Herman. It's a shame that people like Nik ruin it and to make matters worse idiot moderators like you condone his bullshit and enable his nonsense. I am an intellect. I guess I don't fit in here. Not much intellectual discussion, just a lot of bullshit and people tooting their own horn. I could learn more reading a gossip column.

You can find examples of me being hostile towards Nik but you won't find a single post by me talking down to people the way he does. And like I said, what I have done is simply in response to his complete and utter stupidity.

 

[Bill_Berg]

Dude, you're way out of line.

 

[herman]

Well, since I've been named as sickbeast's favourite person here (cheers, bud), I guess I should say something.

I've had differences of opinion/interpretation with both Nik and sickbeast before and I've agreed with them many other times. I can see why sickbeast feels frustrated as Nik can be interpreted as acerbic (I think it's hilarious). He's really quite good at outlining his point of view with facts and illustrations. The people who find that grating tend to not like having their blind spots pointed out.

sickbeast, please re-read some of what you've posted recently (imagine it under a different username in the cold light of morning if need be). It sounds like someone who is exactly like the Nik you purport to want to defend us all from. No one is against you personally (well maybe now), but statements that don't jive will get discussed and argued about on the Internet. That's why we are here: to put our ideas out there and have them sharpened and refined by the community.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

You can find examples of me being hostile towards Nik but you won't find a single post by me talking down to people the way he does. And like I said, what I have done is simply in response to his complete and utter stupidity.

Listen man, I get that you don't like Nik. And I get that you don't like me. You've made those two things clear before. I don't really care. Posters have discussions and disagreements with Nik and others every single day on these boards and it's been a very, very long time since that's caused a thread to be hijacked the way you hijacked this one. If you're incapable of having a civil discourse with another poster because of you're intense, personal dislike for them then just ignore them. You turned a perfectly reasonable debate about whether or not Marco Estrada is considered an elite pitcher into a one-sided pissing match. That's on you. Stop blaming others for it.

 

[bustaheims]

I heard a rumor on TSN that the Jays are going to keep both Bautista and Estrada and sign them both to contract extensions.

I would be on board for resigning both.

So, trying to get this thread back on track . . .

Estrada back on a short deal is worth considering - the Jays' defence has really let their staff down this year, and Estrada's number have taken a big hit because of that. Shore up the D next season, and he's probably back to being a valuable starter.

Bautista, however . . . based on the past two seasons, it's time to let him walk. He's become part of the defensive problem, as his mobility has become a major issue. Unless he moves to 1B, he's not someone you want out in the field on a day-to-day basis. His bat speed has also dropped significantly - to the point that he's an average to below average contributor overall. He still has some power left, but, when he doesn't go yard, he doesn't produce any offence of note. At his age, things are highly unlikely to improve, either.

 

[Kin]

Estrada back on a short deal is worth considering - the Jays' defence has really let their staff down this year, and Estrada's number have taken a big hit because of that. Shore up the D next season, and he's probably back to being a valuable starter.

Broadly speaking I agree with that. To my mind, the question is if you trade Estrada and get some prospects can you go out and sign someone who'll effectively replace that value.

 

[bustaheims]

Broadly speaking I agree with that. To my mind, the question is if you trade Estrada and get some prospects can you go out and sign someone who'll effectively replace that value.

I mean, in theory, you could simply just sign Estrada again, so, yes?

I don't think Estrada is overwhelmingly hard to replace on the free agent market. You might have to overpay a little, because, well, free agency, but there will be equivalent options out there.

 

[sickbeast]

Guys I apologize for going off the way I did, particularly to Nik the Trik and CarltonTheBear.  My frustration got the better of me.  I appreciate the way you guys handled it.  I thought I was going to have my posts deleted or else get banned.  Thank you for your understanding.  I do sincerely apologize.

 

[Andy007]

I heard a rumor on TSN that the Jays are going to keep both Bautista and Estrada and sign them both to contract extensions.

I would be on board for resigning both.

So, trying to get this thread back on track . . .

Bautista, however . . . based on the past two seasons, it's time to let him walk. He's become part of the defensive problem, as his mobility has become a major issue. Unless he moves to 1B, he's not someone you want out in the field on a day-to-day basis. His bat speed has also dropped significantly - to the point that he's an average to below average contributor overall. He still has some power left, but, when he doesn't go yard, he doesn't produce any offence of note. At his age, things are highly unlikely to improve, either.

Bautista since June 1st: .190 AVG, .299 OBP .333 SLG .279 wOBA  69 wRC+  6HR  17RBI. His defense is below average and his base running is atrocious this year (UBR -4.6). I'm not optimistic that any of that will change next year when he's even older. They have to let him walk.

 

[Kin]

Yeah, I guess my only question re: Bautista is whether or not you bring him back for a year or two during a rebuild because he's a fan favourite and could theoretically be chasing some big milestones like 1000 RBI and(unlikely) 400 HR. Also, and this is sort of firing blindly, maybe you hope that he can regain some of his form if he's DHing every day.

Otherwise, yeah.

 

[Arn]

I thought Bautista grounding into the game ending double play today following a blown save with runners advancing on wild pitches kind of summed up the season today. Finding ways to lose or be "unlucky". It definitely feels like that particular incarnation of the Jays had their shot the last couple of years and couldn't quite get it done and the era is ending.

I have no stats to back any of this up, it was just that kind of guy feeling.

 

[Kin]

I thought Bautista grounding into the game ending double play today following a blown save with runners advancing on wild pitches kind of summed up the season today. Finding ways to lose or be "unlucky". It definitely feels like that particular incarnation of the Jays had their shot the last couple of years and couldn't quite get it done and the era is ending.

I have no stats to back any of this up, it was just that kind of guy feeling.

It doesn't invalidate your notion but something that's maybe important to take note of is that if we use the difference between a team's record and their expected pythagorean W-L as "luck" then the Jays have actually been somewhat lucky this year as they're actually five games above it.

They've actually got the fifth worst run differential in the majors. Osuna being as good as he's been and some lucky bounces are probably all that separates the Jays from one of the worst records in the baseball.

 

[Arn]

That's quite interesting - I haven't been able to catch as many jays games this year as I didn't bother with MLB.tv and normally don't until later in the year when it gets to penant races and playoffs so I've been relying on UK tv to get my baseball fix.

But from watching at more of a distance I've picked up a sense of bad luck (injuries in the main) or players not performing as expected etc etc in the reports and social media so the notions and reality differ somewhat

 

[Kin]

Yeah, expected W-L isn't a perfect illustration of luck as a concept. There is just some plain ol' randomness involved. You're right that the Jays have been unlucky in terms of injury and in some cases just bizarre ones(Sanchez being unable to throw a baseball, for instance)

 

[hockeyfan1]

Tulowitzki injury more serious than first perceived.  Looks like he could be out indefinitely...

[tweet]891681669350031362[/tweet]

 

[Arn]

So a few trades going through and possibly a couple more still to come including possibly Happ. Are any of the pieces that have come back potential worthwhile prospects?

 

[Andy007]

So a few trades going through and possibly a couple more still to come including possibly Happ. Are any of the pieces that have come back potential worthwhile prospects?

Hernandez, the OF received for Liriano actually has a lot of potential. He was ranked 6th out of Astros prospects at the beginning of the season and all the lists seem to have him in their top 10. Athletic, good AAA numbers, plays a position of dire need; it's a pretty nice return for a #5 pitcher who hasn't pitched well and whose contract is expiring.

 

[bustaheims]

So a few trades going through and possibly a couple more still to come including possibly Happ. Are any of the pieces that have come back potential worthwhile prospects?

None of the three that we know of so far have particularly high ceilings, from the looks of things, but they've all put up pretty decent minor league numbers. Teoscar Hernandez - the prospect they received from Houston - probably gets some MLB time this season. The others are at least a couple years away.

 

[Andy007]

Here's an updated Jays prospect list: http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2017?list=tor

Granted I'm not sure how accurate mlb.com rankings are but Hernandez slides in at #5.

 

[Kin]

Man, the Dodgers aren't playing around.