Leafs acquire Steckel from NJ

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Hey, the kid is the best in the league in something, lets give him kudo's  for that. If he can win us two or three games drawing the puck in the final minute of the game then he is worth it.
I think we all agree the depth this team is starting to put together is the best in a long long time.

And the fact that we gave up only a 4th rounder for him, makes me like it even more.

 

[maplesyrup]

I really have no strong feeling one way or another re. Steckel v. comparible 4th liners who were UFAs this summer... Just wondering how some other folks feel about how he stacks up, that's all.

 

[Tigger]

I've watched them both a fair bit and like Flake says it's a bit of apples and oranges. Frankly I'd like to have both of them but the simplest way to contrast; Talbot skates better, is feistier while more of a winger and has more offense in his game but is more expensive ( and just a leetle smaller... ). Maxime didn't get that contract by accident and is the better overall player but Steckel is no slouch.

Konopka took 31 minors to Steckel's 8 and 25 majors to Dave's 2, fwiw.

 

[maplesyrup]

I've watched them both a fair bit and like Flake says it's a bit of apples and oranges. Frankly I'd like to have both of them but the simplest way to contrast; Talbot skates better, is feistier while more of a winger and has more offense in his game but is more expensive ( and just a leetle smaller... ). Maxime didn't get that contract by accident and is the better overall player but Steckel is no slouch.

Konopka took 31 minors to Steckel's 8 and 25 majors to Dave's 2, fwiw.

Super... Just the stuff I'm looking for!

 

[Number 5]

What's the likelihood of Steckel being brought in to be a piece in another trade?

 

[Deebo]

What's the likelihood of Steckel being brought in to be a piece in another trade?

slim.

 

[Kin]

So if we're counting Bozak's -29 last year, we should also give credit for his rookie season, where he looked all kinds of good at the end of the year, when trying to decide what his value is.

I don't really think that's the way these things work. If a guy gets a full season and gets exposed a little it's not like you get to go back and ignore that. Lots of guys come into the league with promise and it ebbs and flows. Bozak's likely to be on a downswing now because of last year.

Every trade that sends youth out the door and brings in older players makes that more difficult IMO. I'm not saying a deal here and there to improve positions with veterans shouldn't be done, but can we at least wait until we know what these younger players can do?

Again, the thing you need to remember that is kind of at the core of the discussion is the fact that Bozak may have trouble getting into games this year. Keeping him around and sitting him in the press box isn't going to give us a better idea of what he can contribute. Yanking him in and out of the line-up based on injuries won't either. Either he has a regular spot in the line-up or he doesn't and, right now, it's looking like he may not. That's what's prompting the discussion. Keeping Bozak around and not playing him is only negative for his value and his play.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

"Further increasing our age" and ending up with a team full of old players? This is still one of the youngest teams in the league(and one that could probably use a little experience and veteran leadership) and we're talking about one trade. They're not the 02-03 Leafs.

Morrow's only 31 and while, yes, it wouldn't be good if Bozak thrives elsewhere it doesn't change the fact that those guys may not have spots here to play. If Bozak doesn't earn his spot and is having trouble getting into games you can't be too picky about who he gets dealt for.

I didn't say "old players" and I wasn't comparing them to the 02-03 Leafs. All I mean is that if we're going to trade youngish players, I'd like to get players back that are also youngish, rather than strictly looking at players that are available specifically because they are on the back nine.

I don't really know how Morrow's name got in to conversations today, but he's a 50 point player right? He's basically an older version of Lupul with more aggressive tendencies. I'd again, like to see what we have in Lupul, before we start replacing players with older versions. Bozak is more capable than the 30-35 points we saw last year, I think that is safe to say. I'll give him a pass on his plus/ minus stats, because of the pressure he was under last year to center the top line after 37 or so games in the league.

Maybe I shouldn't have said "top player", it seems to be clouding what I think we should be getting back in any trades. I'm okay with getting value that is reasonable, I have faith that Burke can get the better end of it, I'd simply like to wait and see if Bozak can be an important part of all this first, before he gets replaced. I think it's a good gamble that he is going to improve over last year and maybe break out on the high end of projections.

 

[Kin]

I've watched them both a fair bit and like Flake says it's a bit of apples and oranges. Frankly I'd like to have both of them but the simplest way to contrast; Talbot skates better, is feistier while more of a winger and has more offense in his game but is more expensive ( and just a leetle smaller... ). Maxime didn't get that contract by accident and is the better overall player but Steckel is no slouch.

Konopka took 31 minors to Steckel's 8 and 25 majors to Dave's 2, fwiw.

That's the thing. Both Talbot and Konopka add value that isn't really comparable to Steckel's. Talbot with his playoff experience and Konopka as a fighter.

Talbot's a little pricier but that's offset by not costing a draft pick. It'll boil down to defensive play which, again, isn't something that I think any of us have a handle on.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I don't really think that's the way these things work. If a guy gets a full season and gets exposed a little it's not like you get to go back and ignore that. Lots of guys come into the league with promise and it ebbs and flows. Bozak's likely to be on a downswing now because of last year.

All the more reason to wait IMO, especially when Connolly is out. I believe Bozak is going to play tomorrow night, Connolly pulled himself out.

Again, the thing you need to remember that is kind of at the core of the discussion is the fact that Bozak may have trouble getting into games this year. Keeping him around and sitting him in the press box isn't going to give us a better idea of what he can contribute. Yanking him in and out of the line-up based on injuries won't either. Either he has a regular spot in the line-up or he doesn't and, right now, it's looking like he may not. That's what's prompting the discussion. Keeping Bozak around and not playing him is only negative for his value and his play.

We disagree that Bozak would be in the pressbox, if both Connolly and Lombardi are healthy and in the line-up. I don't think he would, I even believe he's ahead of Lombardi on the depth chart right now, it's Lombardi that has to prove himself, not Bozak.

 

[Kin]

I don't really know how Morrow's name got in to conversations today, but he's a 50 point player right? He's basically an older version of Lupul with more aggressive tendencies. I'd again, like to see what we have in Lupul, before we start replacing players with older versions.

I don't think the comparison is valid whatsoever. Morrow doesn't just have "aggressive" tendencies. He's a guy who made Team Canada and scored 33 goals last year. Lupul's career high in points is 53 while Morrow's is 74.

Maybe I shouldn't have said "top player", it seems to be clouding what I think we should be getting back in any trades. I'm okay with getting value that is reasonable, I have faith that Burke can get the better end of it, I'd simply like to wait and see if Bozak can be an important part of all this first, before he gets replaced.

To repeat, this is predicated on the idea that Bozak doesn't fit well as a 3rd line centre and that Lombardi surpasses him on the depth chart. Both of those things are real possibilities and the discussion, on my end, is based on those being true. It doesn't mean it's set in stone.

 

[Tigger]

I've watched them both a fair bit and like Flake says it's a bit of apples and oranges. Frankly I'd like to have both of them but the simplest way to contrast; Talbot skates better, is feistier while more of a winger and has more offense in his game but is more expensive ( and just a leetle smaller... ). Maxime didn't get that contract by accident and is the better overall player but Steckel is no slouch.

Konopka took 31 minors to Steckel's 8 and 25 majors to Dave's 2, fwiw.

That's the thing. Both Talbot and Konopka add value that isn't really comparable to Steckel's. Talbot with his playoff experience and Konopka as a fighter.

Talbot's a little pricier but that's offset by not costing a draft pick. It'll boil down to defensive play which, again, isn't something that I think any of us have a handle on.

They're both good defensive players, that much I believe I have a handle on.

For what Zenon brings he would be a very distant third choice of the three where Talbot and Steckel are much closer though I would rank Talbot as a more valuable player overall.

Steckel's run in the 08-09 playoffs was a standout to me, he doesn't have the playoff game experience Talbot does but he was a damn fine player that year in a defensive role.

 

[cw]

it's Lombardi that has to prove himself, not Bozak.

Lombardi has something to prove because of his injury but unlike Bozak, he's previously proven to be able to play good full seasons in the NHL. I think Bozak has plenty to prove and his future in this league depends a fair amount on what he does in the first half of this season as to whether he'll continue in this league. If he puts up another -29, he's off to Europe or the AHL.

 

[Kin]

They're both good defensive players, that much I believe I have a handle on.

I meant that in the comparative sense. How is Steckel defensively vs. Talbot or Konopka? I doubt any of us saw any of those guys enough recently to really take a stand there.

 

[Deebo]

We disagree that Bozak would be in the pressbox, if both Connolly and Lombardi are healthy and in the line-up. I don't think he would, I even believe he's ahead of Lombardi on the depth chart right now, it's Lombardi that has to prove himself, not Bozak.

Lombardi needs to show if he can return to form after the injury, but he has proven far more on the ice that Bozak has over his carreer. Prior to the injury, he had years of 53, 46, 36 and 46 points. Lombardi is an NHL player, Bozak hasn't shown me that he isn't one of those guys that aren't good enough for a spot in the top 6 and doesn't play the style of game suited for a bottom 6 role. I'm not even sure Bozak is going to stick in the NHL for an extended period of time.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I don't think the comparison is valid whatsoever. Morrow doesn't just have "aggressive" tendencies. He's a guy who made Team Canada and scored 33 goals last year. Lupul's career high in points is 53 while Morrow's is 74.

It doesn't much matter what he's done in the past, he's 32 now and on the back nine. He scored around 50 points last year, so in my mind, he's a 50 point player now and most likely less going forward.

To repeat, this is predicated on the idea that Bozak doesn't fit well as a 3rd line centre and that Lombardi surpasses him on the depth chart. Both of those things are real possibilities and the discussion, on my end, is based on those being true. It doesn't mean it's set in stone.

I guess that's where we disagree, I think Bozak can play the 3rd line role and even the 2nd line role barring a trade of someone else or Grabovski walking in the summer (which I hope will not happen).

 

[Deebo]

it's Lombardi that has to prove himself, not Bozak.

Lombardi has something to prove because of his injury but unlike Bozak, he's previously proven to be able to play good full seasons in the NHL. I think Bozak has plenty to prove and his future in this league depends a fair amount on what he does in the first half of this season as to whether he'll continue in this league. If he puts up another -29, he's off to Europe or the AHL.

I should turn that "there have been new posts" warning back on.

 

[Kin]

It doesn't much matter what he's done in the past, he's 32 now and on the back nine. He scored around 50 points last year, so in my mind, he's a 50 point player now and most likely less going forward.

Last year, even at his age, he scored more goals than Phil Kessel and more than Lupul has ever scored in a season, even back in Lupul's own distant past when he was able to play a full year.

I guess that's where we disagree, I think Bozak can play the 3rd line role and even the 2nd line role barring a trade of someone else or Grabovski walking in the summer (which I hope will not happen).

We don't disagree because I'm not saying one way or the other. I'm saying these things are a possibility and something that the Leafs need to take into account when evaluating him as a player.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

it's Lombardi that has to prove himself, not Bozak.

Lombardi has something to prove because of his injury but unlike Bozak, he's previously proven to be able to play good full seasons in the NHL. I think Bozak has plenty to prove and his future in this league depends a fair amount on what he does in the first half of this season as to whether he'll continue in this league. If he puts up another -29, he's off to Europe or the AHL.

I should turn that "there have been new posts" warning back on.

I'm talking about Lombardi now, not before. It's great if Lombardi can supplant Bozak going forward, but he hasn't yet IMO. Lots of people were saying that they didn't even think Lombardi would be playing until Christmas at the least, including you cw.

Sure, Bozak has to prove that he can stick, but unlike Nik, I believe that he can and prove more. I don't think anybody is convinced that last year's Bozak is what he is, most of all Bozak. I expect bigger things from him, if I'm wrong, I have no problems with him being traded or sent to Europe or wherever.

 

[Tigger]

They're both good defensive players, that much I believe I have a handle on.

I meant that in the comparative sense. How is Steckel defensively vs. Talbot or Konopka? I doubt any of us saw any of those guys enough recently to really take a stand there.

Well jeebus, we can't express an opinion without having Scotty's book under our belt? C'mon he's not asking for anyone to take a stand just offer opinion on how they stack up in our minds and from our experience, it happens all the time around here.