• For users coming over from tmlfans.ca your username will remain the same but you will need to use the password reset feature (check your spam folder) on the login page in order to set your password. If you encounter issues, email Rick couchmanrick@gmail.com

Leafs @ Avalanche - Nov. 6th, 9:00pm - TSN4, Fan 590

Nik the Trik said:
Andy007 said:
But the thing is I see notable differences in team play and systems in relation to the different coaches. Maurice had a much more stable defence that would make smart, simple plays in the defensive zone. He just had absolutely brutal goaltending (and still managed respectable teams). Wilson had stretches where the goaltending alternated between awful and great and when the goalies played great, the team looked great. Under Carlyle the team has almost never looked great. The stats all give credence to these observations.

As for Quinn, well I'm sure the changing of the entire rulebook and deterioration of an aging #1 goalie after a full year off was the most to blame for that team's failure.

I don't think Joe's post, and I know this is true for mine, should be seen in anyway as a pro-Carlyle or even a anti-firing Carlyle stance. Just as a "No coach will fix the fundamental deficits in Talent that are the real problem the team will face going forward" stance and just a frank acknowledgement that "the system" gets blamed by a great many fans regardless of who's coaching the team when the results aren't there.

And I don't think any other poster is saying that a different coach will result in a Stanley Cup.

The Leafs finally have elite level goaltending, something that has plagued them for many years and that has vaulted prior teams into contention (See: Pat Quinn era) and I think that most people feel that this vital piece of the puzzle is being wasted by a coach who can't utilize it and who has suffered similar problems with his previous team (which immediately rebounded once he left).
 
Nik the Trik said:
I don't think Joe's post, and I know this is true for mine, should be seen in anyway as a pro-Carlyle or even a anti-firing Carlyle stance. Just as a "No coach will fix the fundamental deficits in Talent that are the real problem the team will face going forward" stance and just a frank acknowledgement that "the system" gets blamed by a great many fans regardless of who's coaching the team when the results aren't there.

That's a great point. Joe mentioned all the great/good coaches we've had that couldn't change the Leafs enough to win. They were also working against a dysfunctional management structure at the time. Our new management team has committed to infusing the ranks with skill and talent, and that takes time to grow to fruition.

As for a coach that can really make a difference, I stumbled across this great article about a coach that is constantly learning, networking, and developing everyone around him: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=734378
 
herman said:
My argument is that talent alone only gets you so far. Take, for example, the Eastern Conference Finals in 2002 against Carolina. On paper, we had the better team, in spite of the injuries (Sundin returned!). But Carolina made it easier for themselves by playing a system that limited opportunities against, and increased their possession time. The Leafs system at the time, if I recall correctly, was run and gun and blame Aki Berg. A good system elevates a team; talent takes it to the next level.

For all of their increased possession time and limiting opportunities against, shots in that series were virtually identical with Carolina having 159 shots to the Leafs 158. Irbe stood on his head that series, Joseph didn't. I might buy that goaltending results are in part attributable to what a coach does but if it was the Canes "system" that led to Irbe's great play than surely Maurice would have been able to coax better than a .902 save percentage from Irbe in the regular season or a .877 the season afterwards. A less talented team beating a more talented team because of superior goaltending is in no way noteworthy or in need of deep examination. Cujo himself netstopped a marginal Oilers team to wins in consecutive seasons over supremely talented Dallas and Colorado teams who were, themselves, well coached enough to result in Stanley Cup victories around that time.

Regardless, there's still a problem with that narrative because even if the Canes did win because of the super to effective system Maurice had in place...

herman said:
Let's say hockey was simplified down to a game of War -- Team A's value vs Team B's value; each team's value is determined by the sum of its players and their individual values. Some are very talented, so they get high values (10 for Crosby/Toews/Bergeron?). Some have stone hands and can't skate, so they're negative values. Obviously, the more talented team wins out. However, if there is a system in place that puts everyone in an optimal position to succeed in a) generating opportunity (i.e. possession, controlled entry) and b) limiting opposing chances; then it's like every player gets an automatic +4 or something.

You're drastically overstating the role of coaching and, more to the point, you're stating it as a sort of repeatable and therefore provable concept that would, in theory, lead to a pretty clear hierarchy of who is or isn't a good coach. Mike Babcock, a guy who let's not forget had some success in Anaheim, would never have been fired and replaced by Randy Carlyle is he had an innate ability to bring out the best in players regardless of who those players are simply by virtue of his brilliance.

Remember that incredible system you think led the Canes to victory? Well, the Leafs hired its architect and what happened? Well, the team more or less played to their talent level, hamstrung by bad goaltending just in the same way that Maurice's playoff success could be attributed to a quick run of brilliant goaltending.

Look at what we see in the Olympics every time. Good coaches are chosen, hard work is done on preparing the players and then...some players play well and some don't. Some elevate their game and some struggle. Coaches can maximize the effect of talent, sure, but to pretend it's a science and that some coaches just inherently are able to bring out the best in players is entirely misplaced.

herman said:
Detroit comes to mind as a good example. They play a tight, possession based game and generate chances with disciplined passes. They make Gustavsson look good. Last year's Leafs are a good example of a terrible system that gave everyone -3 to their player values. Some had the talent to rise above it (Kessel, JvR) and had some measure of success. The team did not.

Kessel didn't have "some measure of success". Kessel was one of the most effective offensive players in the league. Absent Carlyle, and I'm asking you this seriously, do you think he would outscore Crosby? Ovechkin? Is Kessel the best hockey player in the world?

Babcock might very well be a good fit in Detroit. His coaching philosophies may very well mesh with the players they have. Likewise, Carlyle might be a bad fit here.

But there's very little to suggest that anyone understands the game well enough to be able to quantify and identify what that fit is and what it means before a coach is hired. Nobody makes a conscious decision to hire a bad coach and no coach at the NHL level has such a fundamental misunderstanding of the X's and O's to consciously play a "bad" system. No coach succeeds everywhere and all of the coaches that Leafs fans might fantasize about taking over for Carlyle...well, someone at some point looked at them and said "this guy isn't right for our team" and fired them. Nobody has looked at Sidney Crosby or Alex Ovechkin and said "Eh...not the right fit for us."
 
herman said:
Our new management team has committed to infusing the ranks with skill and talent, and that takes time to grow to fruition.

They have? Or they say they have? What does it even mean to make that commitment? Do they stand in stark contrast to all of the management figures who want untalentled teams?

Every new management team will make the right noises and every new management team wants to win.
 
Andy007 said:
And I don't think any other poster is saying that a different coach will result in a Stanley Cup.

I don't think that either but, in a way, I think that sort of speaks to what I'm saying. Carlyle isn't what's really stopping this team from a cup nor is he really what separates this group from being an elite contender for the Cup.

So, in light of that, don't you maybe think that the balance of discussion regarding Carlyle vs. the changes that need to happen to actually bridge that gap are slightly out of whack?

Andy007 said:
The Leafs finally have elite level goaltending, something that has plagued them for many years and that has vaulted prior teams into contention (See: Pat Quinn era)

That was always a convenient and compelling storyline but I don't think that was ever actually true. Cujo was a terrific goalie but he's always received too much credit for the one-year turnaround(Potvin was not the reason they bottomed out the year before) and fundamentally what Quinn did is build a very good team in all aspects.

 
Andy with respect I wouldn't categorize the Leafs goaltending as elite.  Price / Quick / Lundqvist...these guys are elite. If you are going by statistics alone Reimer & Bernier are in the lower 3rd category.
 
Elite are players like Crosby, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares.... I think it is an absurd statement to say Kyle Turris will ever get to that level, let alone suggest he's already getting there. He's 25 and his career best is 58 points. If Turris is close to elite, then so is Bozak, who has 61 points in his last 71 games.


Disclaimer: I don't think Bozak is elite or close to elite.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Andy007 said:
And I don't think any other poster is saying that a different coach will result in a Stanley Cup.

I don't think that either but, in a way, I think that sort of speaks to what I'm saying. Carlyle isn't what's really stopping this team from a cup nor is he really what separates this group from being an elite contender for the Cup.

So, in light of that, don't you maybe think that the balance of discussion regarding Carlyle vs. the changes that need to happen to actually bridge that gap are slightly out of whack?

Andy007 said:
The Leafs finally have elite level goaltending, something that has plagued them for many years and that has vaulted prior teams into contention (See: Pat Quinn era)

That was always a convenient and compelling storyline but I don't think that was ever actually true. Cujo was a terrific goalie but he's always received too much credit for the one-year turnaround(Potvin was not the reason they bottomed out the year before) and fundamentally what Quinn did is build a very good team in all aspects.

I don't think so. Most of that discussion is based on short term thinking. Make the playoffs. We all know what needs to be done in the long term, but since that point isn't even on the radar for the foreseeable future, it seems rather pointless to discuss it. The Leafs aren't blowing up the team. They should, but they aren't. End of story.
 
TML fan said:
I don't think so. Most of that discussion is based on short term thinking. Make the playoffs. We all know what needs to be done in the long term, but since that point isn't even on the radar for the foreseeable future, it seems rather pointless to discuss it.

See, the thing is that I don't think we do know what is on Shanahan's radar. He's the first major outside hire of the new ownership group. He seems open to looking at things in new ways. Soon, he'll have a new boss.

Sure, he didn't blow things up in the off-season but he wasn't even willing to move on from Carlyle this off-season. If he goes to the board after another mediocre season with poor results and makes a case for taking the right course I don't necessarily think it'll fall on deaf ears.
 
yiDynCh.jpg
 
herman said:
I define talent as those physical/psychological gifts that can't really be taught.[/b]

i disagree slightly with this assessment.  I believe talent can be taught.  Here are two examples:

1)  Read in a magazine article (awhile ago) of a music professor who gathered students with little or no musical skills, particularly in the field of classical music.  Gave them each an instrument to play (violin, cello, etc.), hypnotized them throughout each session all the while they were listening to this classical piece (while under hypnosis).

The students began to imitate the sound by ear on their respective musical instruments given.  Eventually, a concert was set to be attended by the families & friends of these students.  When the students began to play, and by the time they finished playing this beautiful classical piece to near perfection, some in attendance were in tears while others nearly fainted.  No one could believe the incredible awesomeness of the event -- in which the professor proved through this project that talent could in some way (though extreme) be taught.
Incredible, indeed.

2) Wayne Gretzky.  Gretzky as a boy, playing against bigger boys used to come home crying from his hockey games.  He was a skinny, scrawny kid who was intimidated by the bigger, heavier opposing players whom he had to find a way around and avoid the boards.  Obviously, Wayne was scared and fearful of getting badly injured.  He also obviously couldn't figure out how to elevate his skills to a higher level.

Enter his father, Walter Gretzky.  With the family backyard rink, Walter began to teach young Gretzky some tricks of the trade.  He would often say to his son, who wanted to quit playing at one point, "Well, you'll just have to find a way around it" referring to young Wayne's troubles on the ice.  Young Gretzky was reluctant to keep practising, not particularly interested too much anymore.  To that, his father remarked, (on a future without the game he loved but had made him 'dissillusiined', "if you want to get up at 4.00 in the morning, work on the power lines in the cold rain the way I do, then go right ahead and forget hockey".

Young Wayne had the good sense to listen.  So, back out to the backyard rink everyday, with his father improvising and teaching him methods to get around other players without getting hit or checked, etcetera.  Surely, Wayne improved his hockey more and more and more....the Wayne Gretzky as we've seen and watched him in the NHL knew the game, the hockey rink and everything that went with it, the way a surgeon incorporates his/her surgical skills.

In other words, Walter Gretzky taught his son the kind of talent that would eventually turn Wayne Gretzky into one of the greatest, if not the greatest players to ever grace the game.

If anyone has read or reads the book entitled "67: The Leafs, their Sensational Victory, and the End of an Empire", it outlines the decline of the Maple Leafs after their last Cup win in 1967, the complete dismantling of that team's core talent, the selling off of the Leafs farm chattels (farm teams of which they had many at one time besides St.Michael's College School), the terrible treatmemt given the players by Imlach theoughout his genure as GM (even a garbage can got more respect than a Dave Keon or a Frank Mahovlich), the seeming inability of the team's corrupted management & ownership (Ballard & Stafford Smythe, then later all Ballard) to ready the team for the '67 NHL expansion which saw several promising & good talent whittled away (while the rest of the league in particular the Leafs rivals les Canadiens, who under Sam Pollock drafted shrewdly and kept plenty of already existing talent), and on and on and on the list goes.

Oh, by the say, someone told a family member, this someone was a close acquaintance of Ballard, that "Harold E. Ballard does not want a Stanley Cup!".  something I refused to believe as true as it was.  Who needed a Cup when the Carlton Street Cashbox was overflowing with plenty of dough.

Now, with Rogers & Bell as corporate owners who have spent enough to have acquired the team, bringing in changes at many levels, now hopefully, a Cup win in the near future could be acoming.

I believe the Leafs are now just 2-3 players away from being a serious playoff and Stanley Cup challenger, coaching change or no coaching change. The Leafs have plenty of talent -- Kessel, Kadri, Lupul, JVR, Gardiner, Reilly, Percy, et al.  All that is needed is to enhance and continue to complement this talent and bring it to a higher level by not only finding talent, but "teaching" it with a better method via some system changes.

Just teying to be optimistic.  :)
 

About Us

This website is NOT associated with the Toronto Maple Leafs or the NHL.


It is operated by Rick Couchman and Jeff Lewis.
Back
Top