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Leafs @ Wild - Dec. 3rd, 8:00pm - TSN4. TSN 1050

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
CarltonTheBear said:
As far as the record book being ruined goes, nobody actually thinks a minor change to the net is going to threaten Gretzky's record of 92 goals in a season or 215 points, right?

It's not that it would be ruined -- it would closed to comparison.

But there are also just so many things that have changed in the game over time.  It's almost beyond count.  Completely off the top of my head:
- size of goalie equipment
- stick materials
- curved sticks
- two-line pass
- goal line positioning
- blue line positioning
- length of season
- rapid expansion
- the WHL
- how many games each team plays within their own division during a season
- the forward pass rule

If you take Wayne Gretzky in his prime and drop him into the NHL right now, he scores nowhere near 92/215.  I also cringe at the thought of bigger nets, but eras are vastly different for very obvious reasons.  Bigger nets would be just one in a long line of significant changes in the game.  There's nothing pure left in the game to protect, it's just an evolving sport.
 
Heroic Shrimp said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
CarltonTheBear said:
As far as the record book being ruined goes, nobody actually thinks a minor change to the net is going to threaten Gretzky's record of 92 goals in a season or 215 points, right?

It's not that it would be ruined -- it would closed to comparison.

But there are also just so many things that have changed in the game over time.  It's almost beyond count.  Completely off the top of my head:
- size of goalie equipment
- stick materials
- curved sticks
- two-line pass
- goal line positioning
- blue line positioning
- length of season
- rapid expansion
- the WHL
- how many games each team plays within their own division during a season
- the forward pass rule

If you take Wayne Gretzky in his prime and drop him into the NHL right now, he scores nowhere near 92/215.  I also cringe at the thought of bigger nets, but eras are vastly different for very obvious reasons.  Bigger nets would be just one in a long line of significant changes in the game.  There's nothing pure left in the game to protect, it's just an evolving sport.

Yeah DownGoesBrown touched on this recently:

Everyone has a different view on whether a bigger net is really the best solution for the continued decline in offense. Some are in favor, some see it as a last resort, some have completely different ideas, and some don't even think that near record-low scoring is a problem. And that's fine. We can save the whole "bigger nets" argument for another day.

But there's one small piece of the larger debate that needs to go away: the argument that changing the size of the nets would be some sort of unforgivable assault on the NHL's history. Appeal to tradition has its place, especially with old-school types like me, but acting as if the dimensions found on an NHL rink are somehow sacrosanct is just silly.

In no particular order, here's a quick list of just some of the changes we've made to the standard NHL rink in recent years without anybody crying about tradition or the sanctity of the record book: moving the bluelines; changing the goal crease; moving the goal line away from the boards; removing the faceoff hash marks; adding that trapezoid thing; changing the goal crease again; restoring slightly different faceoff hash marks; moving the goal line back to where it was before; changed the crease yet again.

Oh, and we also raised the glass around the rink, put up protective netting, painted ads and slogans all over everything, and changed a few dozen rules, including big ones like two-line passes, shootouts and giving points to teams that lose.

We did all this after living through an era where half the league's arenas had completely different ice surface dimensions, and to this day plenty of people want to make all the league's rinks 15 feet wider. And everyone just shrugs at all of it because hey, things change, you know?

So we've basically spent the last few decades changing everything on an NHL rink except the nets. Well, as long as you ignore the fact that we actually did change the size of the nets, just two years ago, and nobody remembers because nobody cared. Apparently changing the net by a few inches in this direction is a terrible thing that irrevocably alters the fabric of the game forever, but a few inches in that direction is no big deal. I will never understand you, hockey net truthers.

So yes, sure, be against bigger nets if you must. Push for some idea you think is better, or push for nothing at all. Just don't invoke tradition as your trump card, because it's a ridiculous stand to take in a league where everything is constantly being tinkered with. Bigger nets is a silly and completely arbitrary place to draw the line. And if there's one thing the NHL loves, it's changing where we draw the lines.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/14119278/nhl-opening-nhl-grab-bag
 
Heroic Shrimp said:
There's nothing pure left in the game to protect, it's just an evolving sport.

When change is being discussed, whether it's in a sport like hockey or just in every day life, if your central argument against the change is "because it's always been like that", then you're just wrong. Sorry.
 
See, I don't care about more goals and I think the 4 X 6 is a constant with the change in the game over the years. To me there are plenty of other areas to address before this, it won't break my heart or anything but I'm in the no camp.
 
Heroic Shrimp said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
CarltonTheBear said:
As far as the record book being ruined goes, nobody actually thinks a minor change to the net is going to threaten Gretzky's record of 92 goals in a season or 215 points, right?

It's not that it would be ruined -- it would closed to comparison.

But there are also just so many things that have changed in the game over time.  It's almost beyond count.  Completely off the top of my head:
- size of goalie equipment
- stick materials
- curved sticks
- two-line pass
- goal line positioning
- blue line positioning
- length of season
- rapid expansion
- the WHL
- how many games each team plays within their own division during a season
- the forward pass rule

If you take Wayne Gretzky in his prime and drop him into the NHL right now, he scores nowhere near 92/215.  I also cringe at the thought of bigger nets, but eras are vastly different for very obvious reasons.  Bigger nets would be just one in a long line of significant changes in the game.  There's nothing pure left in the game to protect, it's just an evolving sport.

This argument is often made, but none of those changes is as fundamental as the size of the net.
 
As for DGB's long-winded rant, he ruins his own credibility with his little snark about the nets having been changed 2 years ago, knowing full well they didn't change the 4x6.  Like the comedian he is, he just couldn't pass up a cheap laugh.
 
Another game I didn't even bother to watch.  I guess I really didn't miss anything!  ???
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Heroic Shrimp said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
CarltonTheBear said:
As far as the record book being ruined goes, nobody actually thinks a minor change to the net is going to threaten Gretzky's record of 92 goals in a season or 215 points, right?

It's not that it would be ruined -- it would closed to comparison.

But there are also just so many things that have changed in the game over time.  It's almost beyond count.  Completely off the top of my head:
- size of goalie equipment
- stick materials
- curved sticks
- two-line pass
- goal line positioning
- blue line positioning
- length of season
- rapid expansion
- the WHL
- how many games each team plays within their own division during a season
- the forward pass rule

If you take Wayne Gretzky in his prime and drop him into the NHL right now, he scores nowhere near 92/215.  I also cringe at the thought of bigger nets, but eras are vastly different for very obvious reasons.  Bigger nets would be just one in a long line of significant changes in the game.  There's nothing pure left in the game to protect, it's just an evolving sport.

This argument is often made, but none of those changes is as fundamental as the size of the net.

The size of the goaltending equipment sure is.

Bernie+Parent+&+Bobby+Baun.jpg
 
I mean, geez, look at the size of the goalies Gretzky was scoring on in these breakaway goal highlights.  They look like midgets.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr6hKqbWYwU[/youtube]
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
CarltonTheBear said:
As far as the record book being ruined goes, nobody actually thinks a minor change to the net is going to threaten Gretzky's record of 92 goals in a season or 215 points, right?

It's not that it would be ruined -- it would closed to comparison.

When goaltending equipment tripled in size the dimensions to score changed.
 
So where exactly is the line here? Would adding 1/8th of an inch to the top of the net completely destroy the game of hockey as we know it?
 
CarltonTheBear said:
So where exactly is the line here? Would adding 1/8th of an inch to the top of the net completely destroy the game of hockey as we know it?

Absolutely.  We would no longer be able to make fair comparison between, say, Gary Leeman's 50-goal season and Jamie Benn's 87-point Art Ross winning season.
 
I don't understand the problem. Every sport has various cut-off points where various things changed that drastically altered the way that numbers were compiled. Adding size to the nets is probably a lot less drastic a change than things like goalie pads, padding in general or just the physical change in goaltending that's taken place.
 
I mean for the love of god we play 3-on-3 "hockey" at times now. How is that not a more drastic change to the game than a small increase to the size of the top of the net?
 
Nik the Trik said:
I don't understand the problem. Every sport has various cut-off points where various things changed that drastically altered the way that numbers were compiled. Adding size to the nets is probably a lot less drastic a change than things like goalie pads, padding in general or just the physical change in goaltending that's taken place.

That's probably true, but I feel like it should be the last thing on the list of things to change. Things like equipment have evolved over time, and that naturally lends itself to rules having to be adjusted and restrictions being put in. If those don't work, then you look at changing the net size. There are some things that should only changed if it's absolutely necessary. To me, it's like if the NHL changed from having a 100 yard field, or MLB changed from having 90 ft bath paths.
 
bustaheims said:
That's probably true, but I feel like it should be the last thing on the list of things to change. Things like equipment have evolved over time, and that naturally lends itself to rules having to be adjusted and restrictions being put in. If those don't work, then you look at changing the net size. There are some things that should only changed if it's absolutely necessary. To me, it's like if the NHL changed from having a 100 yard field, or MLB changed from having 90 ft bath paths.

Maybe it's just me but I think the flaw with that analogy is that while I think that the every day sports fan knows the NFL has 100 yard fields, MLB has 90 ft basepaths and the NBA has a 10 ft high net, I think even some pretty die-hard hockey fans(myself included) couldn't tell you the dimensions of the net off-hand.

If they widened the nets by a half-inch or even full inch on either side, not only do I not think I'd be able to tell the difference at a glance but I think it's effect on scores would be pretty small.

 
Nik the Trik said:
Maybe it's just me but I think the flaw with that analogy is that while I think that the every day sports fan knows the NFL has 100 yard fields, MLB has 90 ft basepaths and the NBA has a 10 ft high net, I think even some pretty die-hard hockey fans(myself included) couldn't tell you the dimensions of the net off-hand.

If they widened the nets by a half-inch or even full inch on either side, not only do I not think I'd be able to tell the difference at a glance but I think it's effect on scores would be pretty small.

It's 6' x 4'. :P Though, honestly, whether the average fan knows doesn't matter to me. In fact, I really don't think it even applies. It's more about maintaining the same standard measurements for scoring.

And, if the effect on scores would be small, why bother?
 
Nik the Trik said:
Maybe it's just me but I think the flaw with that analogy is that while I think that the every day sports fan knows the NFL has 100 yard fields, MLB has 90 ft basepaths and the NBA has a 10 ft high net.

Also, just looking at the basketball, the average height of NBA players has remained pretty much the same over the past 30 years. If they were drastically getting taller, or players started wearing shoes that gave them an extra 4 inches in height, I think you'd probably find more people interested in changing something the the net height.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Shouldn't it be more about making the game better, today?

I think there a lot of other areas that should be explored in terms of making the game better before starting to seriously discuss changing the size of the nets.
 

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