Leafs @ Wild - Dec. 3rd, 8:00pm - TSN4. TSN 1050

[herman]

Now Nik, don't we let us allow our stormy but ultimately beautiful and lasting relationship degenerate into name calling.  Sorry if I struck a nerve with the "trolling" dig, but seriously, he's underperforming, like Frank said.  Apparently all you guys think he's not.  There you have it, another unresolvable hockey internet brawl.

What all us guys are trying to say is that there's a difference between under-peforming and under-producing. I'll give you the 2nd one, that's obvious. But Kadri's been performing like the best forward on this team.

That's a pretty trivial distinction C.  We're talking about the forward with the most amount of ice-time on the team.

This distinction is what is at the core of the disagreement.

You can't get good production without good performance, so often the two are considered synonymous. However, it is possible to perform without producing due to the aforementioned variables in every shot on goal (blocks, chippy ice, puck on edge, 2 mm on the wrong side of the post, etc.) that are not within the player's control.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

All (semi-) humorous points re Kadri well and good but he does need to start scoring or else he does begin to look floppish.

Only to people who judge players solely by their point totals. And I think even most of the casual fans have seen enough to not feel like he's a failure. It's not like he's been invisible out there.

Well, not solely, but man, he's getting 18 minutes a game, and is #1 in the forwards in that.

Obviously he's not a failure of a hockey player, but I think it's fair to say that we all had higher expectations for his production this season.  Granted, his FO% is much better, and his possession game is OK, but he's not generating enough offense even given those things that are supposed to lead to it.  He leads the team in offensive zone starts for crying out loud, and he's getting the 2nd most PP time amongst forwards (JVR leads).  I'm not sure Babcock could hand him much more opportunity to produce without it looking like he's spoon-feeding him.

I think if it was Bozak putting up those numbers, people would be up in arms wondering what the hell he was doing with that kind of ice time.

I would hope that if Bozak was putting up those numbers but getting the same sorts of chances and riding a low SH% that that fact would be brought up in any hypothetical discussion as context.  For instance if it was switched around I'd say you shouldn't expect it to last considering in the previous 220 games his SH% was 13.2% so it is very unlikely he all of a sudden forgot how to score.

I don't see it as any different than in 2013-14 when there were people saying to pump the brakes on expecting a PPG player out of Kadri because of his success in the shortened season - in both that case and in this this current one, people are looking at the context and saying "this likely is not sustainable." 

 

[Kin]

You can't get good production without good performance, so often the two are considered synonymous.

I don't know. The argument against Bozak these last few years suggested otherwise.

 

[Tigger]

I honestly don't know how anyone could watch Kadri this year and consider him a flop.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I honestly don't know how anyone could watch Kadri this year and consider him a flop.

The vast, vast majority of penalties that Kadri draws are simply because he's always skating. I think a case could be made that he embellishes slightly when an opposing player does interfere/trip/hook him, but I've never seen him outright fake a call.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

That's a pretty trivial distinction C.  We're talking about the forward with the most amount of ice-time on the team.

I mean others have picked up on this, but I obviously strongly disagree. Are you really suggesting a player, even an offensive minded one, can't be playing well if he isn't scoring?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I honestly don't know how anyone could watch Kadri this year and consider him a flop.

The vast, vast majority of penalties that Kadri draws are simply because he's always skating. I think a case could be made that he embellishes slightly when an opposing player does interfere/trip/hook him, but I've never seen him outright fake a call.

I bet he would be pretty valuable if there was a baseball type "WAR" stat for hockey.  I'm sure drawing that many penalties has a significant impact on overall offense.

 

[Tigger]

I honestly don't know how anyone could watch Kadri this year and consider him a flop.

The vast, vast majority of penalties that Kadri draws are simply because he's always skating. I think a case could be made that he embellishes slightly when an opposing player does interfere/trip/hook him, but I've never seen him outright fake a call.

Oh, I didn't mean diver, but that too. Just in general, how can anyone be really disappointed with how he's played if they've watched him. Sure you'd like to see a few more points and such but he's playing the best overall game he ever has from what I've seen.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Oh, I didn't mean diver, but that too. Just in general, how can anyone be really disappointed with how he's played if they've watched him. Sure you'd like to see a few more points and such but he's playing the best overall game he ever has from what I've seen.

Whoops, sorry, I was reading flop in a different context obviously.

 

[Frank E]

Oh, I didn't mean diver, but that too. Just in general, how can anyone be really disappointed with how he's played if they've watched him. Sure you'd like to see a few more points and such but he's playing the best overall game he ever has from what I've seen.

Whoops, sorry, I was reading flop in a different context obviously.

That was a pretty awesome response though.  I laughed.

 

[L K]

I really like how Kadri is putting up relatively good possession numbers while, at the same time, not actually scoring the goals that would mess up the tank.

I also enjoy that Kadri is playing well and getting involved in the play at both ends of the ice, despite not having a lot of success in putting the puck in the net.

I too feel that Kadri is bad and should feel bad. 

 

[Frank E]

I honestly don't know how anyone could watch Kadri this year and consider him a flop.

The vast, vast majority of penalties that Kadri draws are simply because he's always skating. I think a case could be made that he embellishes slightly when an opposing player does interfere/trip/hook him, but I've never seen him outright fake a call.

Oh, I didn't mean diver, but that too. Just in general, how can anyone be really disappointed with how he's played if they've watched him. Sure you'd like to see a few more points and such but he's playing the best overall game he ever has from what I've seen.

I think he looks better, and some of his statistics show that...particularly some possession and FO% numbers.

But those numbers and play have to, at some point, translate into points and goals.  He's not putting it together...yet.

I really hope he does, and I don't have an ax to grind here.  I'm just pointing out that the guy that most were counting on having a breakthrough season with him finally getting number 1 centre ice time and power play time isn't getting it done from a points production standpoint.  He's not generating enough offensive given his ice time allocation, in my opinion...he's not playing badly, just not good enough. 

 

[Highlander]

come on?Kadir has played like a stud most of this year, if he did not show up for one or two games this is pretty normal?. I saw Gretlaf disappear for a whole game against the Yotes last year.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

But those numbers and play have to, at some point, translate into points and goals.  He's not putting it together...yet.

It's funny, when the points come, Kadri likely won't even be playing as well as he was to start the season.

 

[Tigger]

I honestly don't know how anyone could watch Kadri this year and consider him a flop.

The vast, vast majority of penalties that Kadri draws are simply because he's always skating. I think a case could be made that he embellishes slightly when an opposing player does interfere/trip/hook him, but I've never seen him outright fake a call.

Oh, I didn't mean diver, but that too. Just in general, how can anyone be really disappointed with how he's played if they've watched him. Sure you'd like to see a few more points and such but he's playing the best overall game he ever has from what I've seen.

I think he looks better, and some of his statistics show that...particularly some possession and FO% numbers.

But those numbers and play have to, at some point, translate into points and goals.  He's not putting it together...yet.

I really hope he does, and I don't have an ax to grind here.  I'm just pointing out that the guy that most were counting on having a breakthrough season with him finally getting number 1 centre ice time and power play time isn't getting it done from a points production standpoint.  He's not generating enough offensive given his ice time allocation, in my opinion...he's not playing badly, just not good enough.

Well, you can look at his shooting percentage the same way as some of those other stats to suggest he's not being rewarded for his work. Also, this is Kadri's first time competing against the oppositions best players consistently, so there's a learning curve there too and, while I don't want to slag Bozak, he's being more sheltered this year.

It's all pointing to Kadri probably being best suited as a solid 2C, nothing wrong with that.

Also, does Parise just get to slam into Reimer like that?

 

[Tigger]

I didn't realize Bernier had been traded to Arizona...

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I honestly don't know how anyone could watch Kadri this year and consider him a flop.

The vast, vast majority of penalties that Kadri draws are simply because he's always skating. I think a case could be made that he embellishes slightly when an opposing player does interfere/trip/hook him, but I've never seen him outright fake a call.

Oh, I didn't mean diver, but that too. Just in general, how can anyone be really disappointed with how he's played if they've watched him. Sure you'd like to see a few more points and such but he's playing the best overall game he ever has from what I've seen.

I think he looks better, and some of his statistics show that...particularly some possession and FO% numbers.

But those numbers and play have to, at some point, translate into points and goals.  He's not putting it together...yet.

I really hope he does, and I don't have an ax to grind here.  I'm just pointing out that the guy that most were counting on having a breakthrough season with him finally getting number 1 centre ice time and power play time isn't getting it done from a points production standpoint.  He's not generating enough offensive given his ice time allocation, in my opinion...he's not playing badly, just not good enough.

But everything suggests he's playing well other than the actual points production.  The Leafs coach himself has been preaching process over results for the team.

There's this:

Kadri seems to be the anomaly here.

Like Perry, another former London Knight, Kadri?s first quarter struggles are well documented and discussed ad nauseum, but his charts indicate a distinct divergence. Both his on-ice and individual scoring chance generation has been on the rise in ?15-16. He?s receiving more responsibility and opportunity, and while the results haven?t been as desirable, his individual scoring chance generation has been trending higher, a great sign even if the results are only trickling in.

Results ? assuming he maintains his current production rates ? will eventually correct themselves for the better.

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nhl/58266/483/hockey-analytics

and...

In looking at SportlogIQ data for any more nuanced reasons for the dip, we can assess the fact that of Kadri?s 81 shots, nine have come from the low slot high danger area for goal scoring, eight have come from the high slot, and a further 19 have come from the medium danger zone that extends from the goal crease to the faceoff dots and top of the circles. That would account for 36 of his 81 shots on goal (44 per cent) as either high or medium danger attempts.

It seems unlikely that his shot locations are the issue, as the average NHL shooter will score on over 10 per cent of their shots from those locations ? which means we would expect Kadri to have generated at least three more goals from his shot selection alone. So the issue at hand probably isn?t where Kadri is shooting from, but there might be other factors to consider.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/why-maple-leafs-nazem-kadri-has-struggled-to-score/

(entirety of both articles worth reading)

 

[ZBBM]

Wow, Dumba's only got 3 so far.  If he doesn't pick it up















nevermind.

 

[herman]

That was a rocket. Good puck movement, and what a bomb from Dumba.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

That penalty was as phantom as all the points Kadri's put up recently!