Leafs @ Wings - Mar. 18th, 7:30pm - SN, SN 590

[Tigger]

The coaching staff has contributed to my own concerns about the success of the team but so to has the talent level on the roster, in fact, more so the latter.

Make the team better, better results will follow, fire the coach, pretty much the same results will follow on balance.

Getting the team to a roughly league average defensive performance - which they should absolutely be able to do with the talent on the roster - would cut down 30-40 goals off their current goals against if they maintained their current Sv% (which, with less shots against, shouldn't be a problem - in fact, they could even see it improve slightly). That's about half a goal a game, and would put them in the top 8-10 teams in the league in that category. The talent really isn't the issue. It's how they're deployed.

And even if we agree that the talent of the team IS a problem.  There are things that can be done.

Franson needs to be upgraded with a more responsible defensive player to give a better presence in the top 4.  Giving Gardiner/Rielly more PP time can offset the loss of Franson's offensive contributions.

They could use another banger in the bottom 6...Komarov can probably be brought back in to fill that role.

They need an upgrade on their bottom 6 centermen.  I like Holland but you can't rely on him yet and McClement shouldn't be on the ice in last minute situations.  Bolland was supposed to be that guy but his injury concerns me way too much.  He needs to be replaced or at least brought back cheaply if he can show himself to be healthy.

Ideally you ditch Clarkson but that just isn't going to happen.

Balancing out the roster as a whole could probably pay dividends too if you bring in a coach who plays all 4 lines. Even 5-7 minutes a night from the 4th line, means 1-2 fewer shifts for Kessel in the 1st period so you can ride him a little harder later in games if you are down a goal.

I don't really mind any of that at all, in fact I don't even really mind changing the coach, just that I think there are bigger roster/talent/experience issues overall to worry about.

 

[Tigger]

We're going to disagree on this one, top 8? Not with this roster right now. They could be better, sure, but certainly not fire the coach better, they aren't that good.

I'm not making this up. If the Leafs cut their shots against to roughly the league average - something this group should absolutely be capable of - with their current goaltending, their GA/G would be in the top 8-10 in the league.

I know you're not, I'm saying they aren't capable of it while maintaining the rest of their stats.

 

[bustaheims]

I know you're not, I'm saying they aren't capable of it while maintaining the rest of their stats.

Do you honestly believe the goaltending would be worse if they faced less shots? Or the offence would be worse if they have the puck more?

 

[Tigger]

Carlyle on Reimer. "He was okay, just okay."

Reimer on that comment: "He thought I was just okay? Hmm I thought I was good."

One of them is 100% gone in the off season.

Goodbye Randy.

Could be both of them, hard to say.

I have to say.  I'm locked in that the coach is the problem with this team.  I don't think they suddenly become a top puck possession team with a guy like Laviolette but I'm done with this team being considered good when they need their goaltender to give up less than 2 goals a game AND have a .930 SV% to win.

The coaching staff has contributed to my own concerns about the success of the team but so to has the talent level on the roster, in fact, more so the latter.

Make the team better, better results will follow, fire the coach, pretty much the same results will follow on balance.

Tell that to Anaheim.

Strangely, I think they might of got rid of someone familiar.

Yeah, he won a cup there right? Even Pat Burns got tuned out and fired, I don't think that's what's happening here, but then neither is Getzlaf, Perry, Pronger and Nieds but hey.

 

[Tigger]

I know you're not, I'm saying they aren't capable of it while maintaining the rest of their stats.

Do you honestly believe the goaltending would be worse if they faced less shots? Or the offence would be worse if they have the puck more?

You don't know that the players would have the puck more, or what situations that would be in or how the transition would work. The first question is just sort of insulting really.

 

[bustaheims]

You don't know that the players would have the puck more, or what situations that would be in or how the transition would work. The first question is just sort of insulting really.

It's really just a logical progression. The better a team is defensively, the more they get to play on offence. The only way to reliably keep shots down is to have the puck more often. The specifics aren't really that important.

 

[Tigger]

You don't know that the players would have the puck more, or what situations that would be in or how the transition would work. The first question is just sort of insulting really.

It's really just a logical progression. The better a team is defensively, the more they get to play on offence. The only way to reliably keep shots down is to have the puck more often. The specifics aren't really that important.

Well there's no doubt the team needs to improve defensively but they need to adjust the roster and learn how to do that, they aren't there yet. I'm not sure how you teach a team to be more successful with puck battles, defensive assignments and overall decision making overnight.

Take that Gardiner pinch, JVR should have covered for him but didn't, sometimes a player will make mistakes before they get better and the Leafs seem full of this type of painful growth right now.

At least they have some players that are capable of learning and improving now, 3-4 years ago it was somewhat of a nightmare by comparison.

 

[bustaheims]

Well there's no doubt the team needs to improve defensively but they need to adjust the roster and learn how to do that, they aren't there yet. I'm not sure how you teach a team to be more successful with puck battles, defensive assignments and overall decision making overnight.

Take that Gardiner pinch, JVR should have covered for him but didn't, sometimes a player will make mistakes before they get better and the Leafs seem full of this type of painful growth right now.

At least they have some players that are capable of learning and improving now, 3-4 years ago it was somewhat of a nightmare by comparison.

Those nightmare teams, while shallow in terms of talent, actually played a much better defensive game than the current group does. They just had the worst goaltending in the league behind them.

A lot of the issues stem from the passive defensive system they play. This is a team that is among the faster skating teams in the league, and yet, they're consistently getting to the puck after the other team. That's a big part of the reason they're losing so many puck battles. When they were really successful last season, they were an aggressive attack team. That's what they need to get back to. That doesn't require a learning curve or any roster adjustments. The pieces required to play that way are already there. They're obviously not going to play mistake free hockey - no team in the league does - but they could at least be playing to their strengths. No more of the is passive, counter-attack, collapsing in front of the net and leaving guys wide open because of it BS. That's all on Carlyle, because that's the way he wants them to play.

 

[Tigger]

When they were really successful last season, they were an aggressive attack team.

Same coach who claims he wants them to play like that now, I don't think I've heard anything from him saying anything about wanting them to play passive or only counter attack ( and/or collapse ). It's somewhere in the middle.

I'll just blame Clarkson for everything, David 'Panacea' Clarkson... ah

 

[bustaheims]

Same coach who claims he wants them to play like that now, I don't think I've heard anything from him saying anything about wanting them to play passive or only counter attack ( and/or collapse ). It's somewhere in the middle.

I'll just blame Clarkson for everything, David 'Panacea' Clarkson... ah

We've seen an awful lot of Carlyle saying one thing and, then, doing another. So, I'm really not going to put much stock in what he's saying when I don't see the team doing anything different.

 

[Redleaf]

Same coach who claims he wants them to play like that now, I don't think I've heard anything from him saying anything about wanting them to play passive or only counter attack ( and/or collapse ). It's somewhere in the middle.

I'll just blame Clarkson for everything, David 'Panacea' Clarkson... ah

We've seen an awful lot of Carlyle saying one thing and, then, doing another. So, I'm really not going to put much stock in what he's saying when I don't see the team doing anything different.

But you have to admit, Tigger's got a point. You want them to play more like the way they did last year, when Carlyle 'was' the coach.

Do you really think Randy has decided to change his coaching philosophy this year, and that's what's leading to all the on ice errors and defensive breakdowns?

 

[bustaheims]

But you have to admit, Tigger's got a point. You want them to play more like the way they did last year, when Carlyle 'was' the coach.

Do you really think Randy has decided to change his coaching philosophy this year, and that's what's leading to all the on ice errors and defensive breakdowns?

I want them to play more like they did at the beginning of the season last year, when they didn't have a full training camp and hadn't really settled in to Carlyle's system. The on ice errors and defensive breakdowns started to appear mid-way through last season. It's the same philosophy, it's just that the team is much more orthodox about it now.

 

[Andy007]

Same coach who claims he wants them to play like that now, I don't think I've heard anything from him saying anything about wanting them to play passive or only counter attack ( and/or collapse ). It's somewhere in the middle.

I'll just blame Clarkson for everything, David 'Panacea' Clarkson... ah

We've seen an awful lot of Carlyle saying one thing and, then, doing another. So, I'm really not going to put much stock in what he's saying when I don't see the team doing anything different.

But you have to admit, Tigger's got a point. You want them to play more like the way they did last year, when Carlyle 'was' the coach.

Do you really think Randy has decided to change his coaching philosophy this year, and that's what's leading to all the on ice errors and defensive breakdowns?

No he doesn't and neither do you. This team had similar problems last year. They were outplayed by bottom feeders and couldn't clear the defensive zone to save the life of them. Reimer and his .924 save percentage bailed them out, just like Bernier is bailing them out this year.

 

[Redleaf]

Same coach who claims he wants them to play like that now, I don't think I've heard anything from him saying anything about wanting them to play passive or only counter attack ( and/or collapse ). It's somewhere in the middle.

I'll just blame Clarkson for everything, David 'Panacea' Clarkson... ah

We've seen an awful lot of Carlyle saying one thing and, then, doing another. So, I'm really not going to put much stock in what he's saying when I don't see the team doing anything different.

But you have to admit, Tigger's got a point. You want them to play more like the way they did last year, when Carlyle 'was' the coach.

Do you really think Randy has decided to change his coaching philosophy this year, and that's what's leading to all the on ice errors and defensive breakdowns?

No he doesn't and neither do you. This team had similar problems last year. They were outplayed by bottom feeders and couldn't clear the defensive zone to save the life of them. Reimer and his .924 save percentage bailed them out, just like Bernier is bailing them out this year.

But yet they still had enough skill and strategy at times to beat some of the elite teams along the way. That tells me it's more of a motivation and an inexperience issue than just coaching and systems. You can say that motivation should fall under the coaches responsibilities , and you may be right, but I believe it falls more on the players to find it within themselves.

A coach can only scream, intimidate or coddle players to a certain degree. The rest lies with the guys pulling up their boot straps and fighting for the puck every single game.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Same coach who claims he wants them to play like that now, I don't think I've heard anything from him saying anything about wanting them to play passive or only counter attack ( and/or collapse ). It's somewhere in the middle.

I'll just blame Clarkson for everything, David 'Panacea' Clarkson... ah

We've seen an awful lot of Carlyle saying one thing and, then, doing another. So, I'm really not going to put much stock in what he's saying when I don't see the team doing anything different.

But you have to admit, Tigger's got a point. You want them to play more like the way they did last year, when Carlyle 'was' the coach.

Do you really think Randy has decided to change his coaching philosophy this year, and that's what's leading to all the on ice errors and defensive breakdowns?

No he doesn't and neither do you. This team had similar problems last year. They were outplayed by bottom feeders and couldn't clear the defensive zone to save the life of them. Reimer and his .924 save percentage bailed them out, just like Bernier is bailing them out this year.

That's no way to make friends is it?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I can't wait until we have robot coaches.

 

[pnjunction]

Even though these guys are pros who should be able to get themselves up for every game, one of the things I took away from the HBO thing was that Babcock seems to put more energy into his room and try to pump his guys up before each game/period.  Carlyle's routine was more somberly informing the guys the opening lineup with pretty much no energy or excitement at all.

I think this problem has multiple layers.  We have players that look sloppy and poorly motivated at times, and what looks like a vacuum of leadership (players and coaches) in terms of dealing with it.  Carlyle's approach to motivating Kadri and Reimer seems to be throwing them under the bus for example which does not seem like a viable strategy for consistency which we can see the team is sorely lacking.

 

[Tigger]

I can't wait until we have robot coaches.

This should get them fired up...

Maybe with a horrible clown head on top...

 

[Andy007]

Same coach who claims he wants them to play like that now, I don't think I've heard anything from him saying anything about wanting them to play passive or only counter attack ( and/or collapse ). It's somewhere in the middle.

I'll just blame Clarkson for everything, David 'Panacea' Clarkson... ah

We've seen an awful lot of Carlyle saying one thing and, then, doing another. So, I'm really not going to put much stock in what he's saying when I don't see the team doing anything different.

But you have to admit, Tigger's got a point. You want them to play more like the way they did last year, when Carlyle 'was' the coach.

Do you really think Randy has decided to change his coaching philosophy this year, and that's what's leading to all the on ice errors and defensive breakdowns?

No he doesn't and neither do you. This team had similar problems last year. They were outplayed by bottom feeders and couldn't clear the defensive zone to save the life of them. Reimer and his .924 save percentage bailed them out, just like Bernier is bailing them out this year.

That's no way to make friends is it?

Shut it!!!!!!!

I mean...I'm working on it