Mitch Marner: what now?

[CarltonTheBear]

Like every Cox article, it's full of very logical and sound points. Like comparing Aho's contract to a deal that was signed SEVEN years ago.

 

[Bates]

Cox is right about one thing, team's are really not using the leverage they have with RFA's. Why wouldn't you use the power when you have it? The players certainly do when they have it. We could have been building around 3 young players on team friendly deals but will end up with little money left to surround them with talent.

 

[herman]

What leverage?

 

[Bates]

What leverage?

You really can't play elsewhere without taking a major pay cut.

 

[herman]

What leverage?

You really can't play elsewhere without taking a major pay cut.

Then the team is cutting out 75-94 pts from their line up.

 

[Bates]

What leverage?

You really can't play elsewhere without taking a major pay cut.

Then the team is cutting out 75-94 pts from their line up.

Short term pain for long term gain. Its too late now, they needed to assert the power with Nylander.

 

[herman]

So easy to just lop off 60+ pts from your roster to make a point.

That player and subsequent players coming off their ELCs just outright leave in UFA then after you've soured the relationships.

 

[Bates]

So easy to just lop off 60+ pts from your roster to make a point.

That player and subsequent players coming off their ELCs just outright leave in UFA then after you've soured the relationships.

Those same players will do what is best for them when they have the chance, the Team should do the same. It's never easy to let good players sit but it's also rather hard to win with half your lineup making League minimum, we wouldn't need to do that if we used the CBA to our advantage with RFA's.

 

[herman]

So easy to just lop off 60+ pts from your roster to make a point.

That player and subsequent players coming off their ELCs just outright leave in UFA then after you've soured the relationships.

Those same players will do what is best for them when they have the chance, the Team should do the same. It's never easy to let good players sit but it's also rather hard to win with half your lineup making League minimum, we wouldn't need to do that if we used the CBA to our advantage with RFA's.

It's even harder to win without superstar point scorers though because they're the ones who can break through stalemate games consistently to actually put you in position to win when it counts. You don't get many shots at getting core players that actually move the needle appreciably; burning them to flesh out the roster with 3-6M depth players in low leverage roles instead of 700k depth players is not long term gain.

 

[Kin]

I'm sure it's very easy in early august to say that it doesn't matter if the team wins next year but the season to season fortunes of a team have real impacts on people's careers. I think Bob Mackenzie said it best when he said that if the team had not signed Nylander and the team had had the same post-season result the dominant narrative among the notoriously easy going Leafs fanbase would have been that not signing Nylander cost the Leafs a playoff series.

 

[Kin]

It's even harder to win without superstar point scorers though because they're the ones who can break through stalemate games consistently to actually put you in position to win when it counts. You don't get many shots at getting core players that actually move the needle appreciably; burning them to flesh out the roster with 3-6M depth players in low leverage roles instead of 700k depth players is not long term gain.

More to the point there's just a wild overstating of the consequences here. The difference between the deals the Leafs signed and even the most optimistic projections of what they were looking at probably totals to around 5 million dollars between the three contracts combined. 5 million dollars is 6% of the cap. That is not the difference between a team full of depth and team full of minimum salary players.

 

[Bates]

So easy to just lop off 60+ pts from your roster to make a point.

That player and subsequent players coming off their ELCs just outright leave in UFA then after you've soured the relationships.

Those same players will do what is best for them when they have the chance, the Team should do the same. It's never easy to let good players sit but it's also rather hard to win with half your lineup making League minimum, we wouldn't need to do that if we used the CBA to our advantage with RFA's.

It's even harder to win without superstar point scorers though because they're the ones who can break through stalemate games consistently to actually put you in position to win when it counts. You don't get many shots at getting core players that actually move the needle appreciably; burning them to flesh out the roster with 3-6M depth players in low leverage roles instead of 700k depth players is not long term gain.

Recent history says super star point producers are less important.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

So easy to just lop off 60+ pts from your roster to make a point.

That player and subsequent players coming off their ELCs just outright leave in UFA then after you've soured the relationships.

Those same players will do what is best for them when they have the chance, the Team should do the same. It's never easy to let good players sit but it's also rather hard to win with half your lineup making League minimum, we wouldn't need to do that if we used the CBA to our advantage with RFA's.

It's even harder to win without superstar point scorers though because they're the ones who can break through stalemate games consistently to actually put you in position to win when it counts. You don't get many shots at getting core players that actually move the needle appreciably; burning them to flesh out the roster with 3-6M depth players in low leverage roles instead of 700k depth players is not long term gain.

Recent history says super star point producers are less important.

By that logic, then trade Matthews, Nylander, Marner and Tavares for a bunch of plugs and voila, instant champs. 

 

[Kin]

By that logic, then trade Matthews, Nylander, Marner and Tavares for a bunch of plugs and voila, instant champs.

I think it's very generous of you to refer to that as logic.

Literally three of the last four Conn Smythes were won by the two most pre-eminent point scoring superstars of their generation.

 

[Bates]

So easy to just lop off 60+ pts from your roster to make a point.

That player and subsequent players coming off their ELCs just outright leave in UFA then after you've soured the relationships.

Those same players will do what is best for them when they have the chance, the Team should do the same. It's never easy to let good players sit but it's also rather hard to win with half your lineup making League minimum, we wouldn't need to do that if we used the CBA to our advantage with RFA's.

It's even harder to win without superstar point scorers though because they're the ones who can break through stalemate games consistently to actually put you in position to win when it counts. You don't get many shots at getting core players that actually move the needle appreciably; burning them to flesh out the roster with 3-6M depth players in low leverage roles instead of 700k depth players is not long term gain.

Recent history says super star point producers are less important.

By that logic, then trade Matthews, Nylander, Marner and Tavares for a bunch of plugs and voila, instant champs.

Yes, exactly what I suggested. I simply suggested that by having several players we could have held the line on and paid less for we gave away a chance to improve our team. If that means one of them missing a season so be it. It would help the team long term. It's the power a team has with RFA's, I have no idea why they don't use it? Actually most teams do.

 

[Bates]

It's even harder to win without superstar point scorers though because they're the ones who can break through stalemate games consistently to actually put you in position to win when it counts. You don't get many shots at getting core players that actually move the needle appreciably; burning them to flesh out the roster with 3-6M depth players in low leverage roles instead of 700k depth players is not long term gain.

More to the point there's just a wild overstating of the consequences here. The difference between the deals the Leafs signed and even the most optimistic projections of what they were looking at probably totals to around 5 million dollars between the three contracts combined. 5 million dollars is 6% of the cap. That is not the difference between a team full of depth and team full of minimum salary players.

$5 million is a lot of money to improve your team each year. Use it at trade deadline and it's amplified. It could give the Leaf's a legitimate defense. Or a higher end backup goalie.

 

[herman]

Bates, you have to take your premise to fruition. What does your proposed line up look like?
Keep in mind that there is no Tavares without Marner, Matthews, or Nylander in the pitch; and in general, no big UFAs want to sign where they see no potential path to victory (i.e. young super star talent) unless they're just playing for raw cash, which you're eschewing.

Let me set up an optimistic template for you:
Johnsson - Kadri - Kapanen
Moore - Petan - ?
? - Gauthier - ?
? - umm - ?

Rielly - Zaitsev
Muzzin - Dermott
Marincin - Holl

Andersen
?

 

[Bates]

Bates, you have to take your premise to fruition. What does your proposed line up look like?
Keep in mind that there is no Tavares without Marner, Matthews, or Nylander in the pitch; and in general, no big UFAs want to sign where they see no potential path to victory (i.e. young super star talent) unless they're just playing for raw cash, which you're eschewing.

Let me set up an optimistic template for you:
Johnsson - Kadri - Kapanen
Moore - Petan - ?
? - Gauthier - ?
? - umm - ?

Rielly - Zaitsev
Muzzin - Dermott
Marincin - Holl

Andersen
?

You are looking at it right here right now. I'm playing the long game holding Cap hits so I can ice the best team every year with salaries held when I can. Tavares was signed when we had them. We would still have all 3 if we held strong in negotiations. The only one of the 3 we risked offer sheet from was Matthew's. If we had held to our $6 million or less for Nylander he would have signed last fall or this summer, I would have forced that issue. We are one of the few teams in the League that is just giving players what they want, it is unlikely to be successful

 

[CatScratchFever]

Its too late now, they needed to assert the power with Nylander.

Couldn't agree with you more. Also, it's my belief that Marner is worth the same money as Matthews.

 

[Bullfrog]

If they're just giving players what they want, why did the Nylander negotiations last until the last minute?