Official Armchair GM Thread 2014-2015 Leafs

[CarltonTheBear]

I think that tells you more about Craig Button and TSN's draft rankings than it does about Biggs.

Their write-up for him was hilarious:

Perhaps the most rugged forward to ever come out of the US development program, Biggs impressed scouts throughout the season with his robust and pro-style game. Strengths - Already built like a man, Biggs dominated his age group in terms of physical maturity and strength. Not afraid to drop the gloves or run over an opponent. Solid positional player, drives hard to the net, possesses a hard shot, strong character. Weaknesses - Feet and hands are average, limited offensive upside, lacks creativity. Prone to taking bad penalties, will need more discipline. NHL Upside - Has been compared to Los Angeles Kings' forward Kyle Clifford. Should be a tough, intimidating second or third-line winger who will battle hard.

 

[bustaheims]

Their write-up for him was hilarious:

Perhaps the most rugged forward to ever come out of the US development program, Biggs impressed scouts throughout the season with his robust and pro-style game. Strengths - Already built like a man, Biggs dominated his age group in terms of physical maturity and strength. Not afraid to drop the gloves or run over an opponent. Solid positional player, drives hard to the net, possesses a hard shot, strong character. Weaknesses - Feet and hands are average, limited offensive upside, lacks creativity. Prone to taking bad penalties, will need more discipline. NHL Upside - Has been compared to Los Angeles Kings' forward Kyle Clifford. Should be a tough, intimidating second or third-line winger who will battle hard.

I was actually just going to post the same write up. Those weaknesses just scream 4th liner to me. I mean, yeah, 2011 wasn't a particularly deep draft, so, ending up with a bust isn't a surprise, but, trading up to draft a guy that really had "good 3rd liner at best" written all over him? That's a poor use of assets.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I was actually just going to post the same write up. Those weaknesses just scream 4th liner to me. I mean, yeah, 2011 wasn't a particularly deep draft, so, ending up with a bust isn't a surprise, but, trading up to draft a guy that really had "good 3rd liner at best" written all over him? That's a poor use of assets.

Maybe my favourite thing about that draft was how Burke said afterward that Biggs wasn't even at the top of their list at that pick, Percy was.

 

[bustaheims]

Maybe my favourite thing about that draft was how Burke said afterward that Biggs wasn't even at the top of their list at that pick, Percy was.

Yup. If I remember correctly, they traded up because they were afraid that someone else would take him, and, I remember thinking "if someone else wants him, let them have him." They probably could have waited and still picked him at 25, Percy at 30 and retained the 39th overall pick - and, if Biggs was gone, oh well.

 

[L K]

Maybe my favourite thing about that draft was how Burke said afterward that Biggs wasn't even at the top of their list at that pick, Percy was.

Yup. If I remember correctly, they traded up because they were afraid that someone else would take him, and, I remember thinking "if someone else wants him, let them have him." They probably could have waited and still picked him at 25, Percy at 30 and retained the 39th overall pick - and, if Biggs was gone, oh well.

And right around the 39th pick:
G John Gibson (39), Brandon Saad (43)

 

[bustaheims]

And right around the 39th pick:
G John Gibson (39), Brandon Saad (43)

And a few other guys who look like they might be decent enough NHLers in the future. Not that the Leafs would have necessarily drafted any of them, but, it would have been nice if they had retained the opportunity to instead of trading up to get a guy that Burke said wasn't even at the top of their draft list. I mean, trading up to get a guy who you don't even think is the best player available? That's just madness.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I find Button seems to have a number of "huh?" picks on his lists that seem to differ wildly from the general consensus.

 

[Bender]

And right around the 39th pick:
G John Gibson (39), Brandon Saad (43)

And a few other guys who look like they might be decent enough NHLers in the future. Not that the Leafs would have necessarily drafted any of them, but, it would have been nice if they had retained the opportunity to instead of trading up to get a guy that Burke said wasn't even at the top of their draft list. I mean, trading up to get a guy who you don't even think is the best player available? That's just madness.

Not to play devil's advocate, but I'm sure anyone who made picks leading up to Jenner or Gibson or Saad are probably equally as pissed off.

 

[bustaheims]

Not to play devil's advocate, but I'm sure anyone who made picks leading up to Jenner or Gibson or Saad are probably equally as pissed off.

Sure, but most of them didn't waste one of their opportunities by trading it away to take a player that wasn't at the top of their draft list. It's less the Biggs pick that bothers me and more the fact that they traded up to take him that does. It felt like a poor decision at the time, and looks even worse now.

 

[ZBBM]

Not to play devil's advocate, but I'm sure anyone who made picks leading up to Jenner or Gibson or Saad are probably equally as pissed off.

Sure, but most of them didn't waste one of their opportunities by trading it away to take a player that wasn't at the top of their draft list. It's less the Biggs pick that bothers me and more the fact that they traded up to take him that does. It felt like a poor decision at the time, and looks even worse now.

Burke was one of the most over-rated GMs in recent memory.  A guy too much in love with his own projections of himself.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Not to play devil's advocate, but I'm sure anyone who made picks leading up to Jenner or Gibson or Saad are probably equally as pissed off.

Sure, but most of them didn't waste one of their opportunities by trading it away to take a player that wasn't at the top of their draft list. It's less the Biggs pick that bothers me and more the fact that they traded up to take him that does. It felt like a poor decision at the time, and looks even worse now.

Burke was one of the most over-rated GMs in recent memory.  A guy too much in love with his own projections of himself.

I'd say he made a number of excellent moves.  The Beauchemin and Schenn trades on their own are pretty remarkable.

 

[bustaheims]

Burke was one of the most over-rated GMs in recent memory.  A guy too much in love with his own projections of himself.

Burke was a mixed bag, but, I'd really prefer not to turn the discussion about this one particular move into another referendum about his time as GM.

 

[mr grieves]

Burke was one of the most over-rated GMs in recent memory.  A guy too much in love with his own projections of himself.

Burke was a mixed bag, but, I'd really prefer not to turn the discussion about this one particular move into another referendum about his time as GM.

Someone on Twitter said, rightly I think, that he only looks particularly good because of the incompetence of those who followed.

We spend a lot of time talking about what we want to see happen, how about the opposite? What's the worst-case scenario for this summer? Draft Ritchie over a skilled player and sign a trio of mediocre players with intangibles (Brodeur/Orpik/Bolland or Thornton)?

This is a good question, but I think there's another interesting one. What's the realistic best-case scenario? For me: Nonis signs Bolland to nothing too dumb; fills out the roster with Marlies and late-July/August UFAs; uses the Franson talk to get his value up a bit and, with Reimer maybe, get a decent prospect; and, for the most part, continues to hold that blind confidence that 'this group with this coach has what it takes, we saw it before.'

It's a best case in that nothing of value is traded and nothing too stupid is signed, so longterm damage to the franchise is avoided. It's realistic because it assumes Nonis believes he spent the last year building a good roster.

And it's depressing because the best case with this management group is little improvement on a 22nd place team.

 

[Kin]

Not to play devil's advocate, but I'm sure anyone who made picks leading up to Jenner or Gibson or Saad are probably equally as pissed off.

Sure, but most of them didn't waste one of their opportunities by trading it away to take a player that wasn't at the top of their draft list. It's less the Biggs pick that bothers me and more the fact that they traded up to take him that does. It felt like a poor decision at the time, and looks even worse now.

Yeah, I think that you can do a pretty good job of criticizing the move before you even get to the players taken. The Leafs were not a team with a strong prospect base but had the #25, #30 and #39 picks in the draft. I think it's kind of representative of the larger problems with Burke's attitude toward building a team that he'd think that any prospect you would draft at #22 would be a better addition to the organization than the two prospects you'd have otherwise.

Just realistically, there's not that much difference between two picks at the end of the first round. If the Leafs were in a position to contend and Biggs had been a particularly NHL ready prospect...sure. But for a rebuilding team it was exactly the kind of hubris that put the Leafs on the bad path they're on. Misjudging where the Leafs were was what Burke did, time and again.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I'd say he made a number of excellent moves.  The Beauchemin and Schenn trades on their own are pretty remarkable.

I agree, but I think it speaks more to how good Burke could be, if he didn't choose personal value-driven red lines, before what's best for the Leafs. I don't like Simmons as a writer, but I think he is right when he says that Burke was fired also, because he didn't make certain moves, based on his personal "ethics." Simmons believes that that was the reason he didn't go after Carter and that it had nothing to do with Carter the player. The sticking point for Burke is the cap-circumventing contracts that Carter has. If that is true, then Simmons has a good point.

I think many here have seen this problem with Burke while he was here. I didn't mind the bluster, but when it affects the product on the ice for the Leafs, then I think it's a problem.

 

[Redleaf]

Burke was one of the most over-rated GMs in recent memory.  A guy too much in love with his own projections of himself.

Burke was a mixed bag, but, I'd really prefer not to turn the discussion about this one particular move into another referendum about his time as GM.

Someone on Twitter said, rightly I think, that he only looks particularly good because of the incompetence of those who followed.

We spend a lot of time talking about what we want to see happen, how about the opposite? What's the worst-case scenario for this summer? Draft Ritchie over a skilled player and sign a trio of mediocre players with intangibles (Brodeur/Orpik/Bolland or Thornton)?

This is a good question, but I think there's another interesting one. What's the realistic best-case scenario? For me: Nonis signs Bolland to nothing too dumb; fills out the roster with Marlies and late-July/August UFAs; uses the Franson talk to get his value up a bit and, with Reimer maybe, get a decent prospect; and, for the most part, continues to hold that blind confidence that 'this group with this coach has what it takes, we saw it before.'

It's a best case in that nothing of value is traded and nothing too stupid is signed, so longterm damage to the franchise is avoided. It's realistic because it assumes Nonis believes he spent the last year building a good roster.

And it's depressing because the best case with this management group is little improvement on a 22nd place team.

I agree that Nonis may not do much in terms of adding a lot of high end players to the Leafs this summer. Marlies and basement bargain UFAs sounds about right to me. I would be surprised to see Phaneuf still with this club after July 1st though. Something tells me he'll be traded to either move up the draft or as part of a package to land that much needed centerman.

 

[Britishbulldog]

I'd say he made a number of excellent moves.  The Beauchemin and Schenn trades on their own are pretty remarkable.

I agree, but I think it speaks more to how good Burke could be, if he didn't choose personal value-driven red lines, before what's best for the Leafs. I don't like Simmons as a writer, but I think he is right when he says that Burke was fired also, because he didn't make certain moves, based on his personal "ethics." Simmons believes that that was the reason he didn't go after Carter and that it had nothing to do with Carter the player. The sticking point for Burke is the cap-circumventing contracts that Carter has. If that is true, then Simmons has a good point.

I think many here have seen this problem with Burke while he was here. I didn't mind the bluster, but when it affects the product on the ice for the Leafs, then I think it's a problem.

Wow that brings back memories:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/715725-maple-leafs-preparing-to-bid-for-flyers-jeff-carter

I forgot about the Leafs thinking about Carter but balking in the end.  I think B/R is right in that the rumoured (leaked) deal Burke was offering was Gunnarsson, Kadri and the Leafs 1st (25th overall).  He ended up going to Columbus for Jakub Voracek, a first-round draft pick and third-round draft pick.

A year later, to the day, Burke got van Riemsdyk for Schenn.

Would have been a nice package deal if both could have been pulled off.

 

[Tigger]

I dunno if that rumour proves the Leafs balked, I mean Voracek and the 8th overall pick is pretty good by comparison, if anything it says Philly took the better offer.

There may be something to Burke's pov on cap circumventing contracts and how it played out in his decision making/relationship with the Leafs management group, though in some ways he was proven correct later, but it's still a huge financial commitment to a player that, at the time, might only have been a good second line centre. Having to add to that deal from the Leafs end and with limited resources etc., seems like something ok to walk away from at the time, if that's how it went.

 

[bustaheims]

There may be something to Burke's pov on cap circumventing contracts and how it played out in his decision making/relationship with the Leafs management group, though in some ways he was proven correct later, but it's still a huge financial commitment to a player that, at the time, might only have been a good second line centre. Having to add to that deal from the Leafs end and with limited resources etc., seems like something ok to walk away from at the time, if that's how it went.

Especially since, really, he's only a part-time centre. He's used more as a winger - and even the Flyers seemed to be leaning towards using him that way before the trade.

Also, if I remember correctly, the rumoured asking price was actually Kulemin (fresh off his 30 goal season) and Kadri.

 

[Tigger]

Also, if I remember correctly, the rumoured asking price was actually Kulemin (fresh off his 30 goal season) and Kadri.

Yeah, that sounds right.