Panthers @ Leafs - Jan. 30th, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590

[ZBBM]

You just changed the argument mid-stream.  We're arguing about whether he deserves to be in the lineup when Clarkson and Bolland come back, not whether he'd be valuable trade bait.  He would be.

No. We've been discussing whether or not he has a spot in the lineup, not whether or not he deserves to be in over guys on the 4th line.

Huh?  You lost me.

Anyway, I am very confident in saying that a lineup with 14-goal Raymond in it is better than no-goal Ashton and that Raymond will not be the one sitting.

I doubt Ashton would have no goals if he was given the same offensive opportunities as Raymond.  You can't just ignore their respective positions in the lineup, everything has an effect on production.  Playing the PP versus not playing it.  Even Crosby would have troubles on a 4th line with Orr/McClement playing 6:00.

So Raymond should sit just because ... well, because Ashton just might explode into an offensive force if he's promoted to the 3rd line?

Sooner or later you have to come around to the bare fact that Raymond has produced and Ashton hasn't.

 

[ZBBM]

Anyway, I am very confident in saying that a lineup with 14-goal Raymond in it is better than no-goal Ashton and that Raymond will not be the one sitting.

Honestly, with the way Carlyle uses his bench, I think Ashton might actually be a more valuable 4th liner than Raymond. If Raymond's not in the top 9, he doesn't really have a spot where he contributes. He's a better player than Ashton right now, sure, but he's not necessarily a better fit.

Reaching.

 

[2badknees]

Anyway, I am very confident in saying that a lineup with 14-goal Raymond in it is better than no-goal Ashton and that Raymond will not be the one sitting.

Honestly, with the way Carlyle uses his bench, I think Ashton might actually be a more valuable 4th liner than Raymond. If Raymond's not in the top 9, he doesn't really have a spot where he contributes. He's a better player than Ashton right now, sure, but he's not necessarily a better fit.

Reaching.

Actually, I agree with him. Key word(s) being 4th line.

 

[bustaheims]

Reaching.

I'd hardly call it a reach to say Raymond would be pretty useless on the 4th line, whereas Ashton has at least displayed some of the qualities you want in that position.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

You just changed the argument mid-stream.  We're arguing about whether he deserves to be in the lineup when Clarkson and Bolland come back, not whether he'd be valuable trade bait.  He would be.

No. We've been discussing whether or not he has a spot in the lineup, not whether or not he deserves to be in over guys on the 4th line.

Huh?  You lost me.

Anyway, I am very confident in saying that a lineup with 14-goal Raymond in it is better than no-goal Ashton and that Raymond will not be the one sitting.

I doubt Ashton would have no goals if he was given the same offensive opportunities as Raymond.  You can't just ignore their respective positions in the lineup, everything has an effect on production.  Playing the PP versus not playing it.  Even Crosby would have troubles on a 4th line with Orr/McClement playing 6:00.

So Raymond should sit just because ... well, because Ashton just might explode into an offensive force if he's promoted to the 3rd line?

Sooner or later you have to come around to the bare fact that Raymond has produced and Ashton hasn't.

Because you're making unfair comparisons.  I don't care if Raymond plays more, but sooner or later you're going to have to come around to the bare fact that your comparison is a false equivalency (let's hope I'm using that right) - you're making a comparison of goal production of one player playing with better linemates and playing on the PP versus the goal production of a player playing almost no minutes with bad linemates and no PP time.

How is that even close to a fair comparison?

 

[lc9]

Anyway, I am very confident in saying that a lineup with 14-goal Raymond in it is better than no-goal Ashton and that Raymond will not be the one sitting.

Honestly, with the way Carlyle uses his bench, I think Ashton might actually be a more valuable 4th liner than Raymond. If Raymond's not in the top 9, he doesn't really have a spot where he contributes. He's a better player than Ashton right now, sure, but he's not necessarily a better fit.

Do you think Carlye will move Raymond from the top 9?  I could see Orr sitting and Bodie taking his 4th line role. 

 

[barney_rebel]

We rule man...

 

[Kin]

You know, there are times when having the fastest guy in the league pays some dividends.

 

[Bonsixx]

Snakey pass by Kessel, nice finish by Bozak.

 

[bustaheims]

Do you think Carlye will move Raymond from the top 9?  I could see Orr sitting and Bodie taking his 4th line role.

I don't think Orr has been a healthy scratch since the 11/12 season. Maybe once. I don't see that changing, but, even if Bodie takes his spot on the 4th line, that doesn't open up a spot in the top 9 for Raymond unless you really believe Carlyle will go back to using Holland on the 4th line with McClement and Bodie/Orr. So, yeah, I do believe Carlyle could very well remove Raymond from the top 9, because, based on the way Carlyle wants the team to play, I don't think the best top 9 the team can put together includes Raymond.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Kessel up over a PPG with that assist.  Now on pace for 83 points.

 

[2badknees]

The way holland has played since his recall, I see him as the odd man out when Bolland returns.

 

[Bonsixx]

The way holland has played since his recall, I see him as the odd man out when Bolland returns.

That's definitely what's going to happen.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Full marks to the team and coaching staff for this run - they've still relied too much on goaltending for my liking (and I don't think it's viable long term in the playoffs), but I'm still thoroughly enjoying the wins.

 

[lc9]

Do you think Carlye will move Raymond from the top 9?  I could see Orr sitting and Bodie taking his 4th line role.

I don't think Orr has been a healthy scratch since the 11/12 season. Maybe once. I don't see that changing, but, even if Bodie takes his spot on the 4th line, that doesn't open up a spot in the top 9 for Raymond unless you really believe Carlyle will go back to using Holland on the 4th line with McClement and Bodie/Orr. So, yeah, I do believe Carlyle could very well remove Raymond from the top 9, because, based on the way Carlyle wants the team to play, I don't think the best top 9 the team can put together includes Raymond.

Fair enough, we just disagree on this one.  I think there is zero chance raymond will be moved from the top 9 with everyone healthy.  Seems much more likely Carlye will move Holland. 

I like that idea too, Raymond has nice speed and shoots well, he just doesn't make the best decisions sometimes.

 

[ZBBM]

You just changed the argument mid-stream.  We're arguing about whether he deserves to be in the lineup when Clarkson and Bolland come back, not whether he'd be valuable trade bait.  He would be.

No. We've been discussing whether or not he has a spot in the lineup, not whether or not he deserves to be in over guys on the 4th line.

Huh?  You lost me.

Anyway, I am very confident in saying that a lineup with 14-goal Raymond in it is better than no-goal Ashton and that Raymond will not be the one sitting.

I doubt Ashton would have no goals if he was given the same offensive opportunities as Raymond.  You can't just ignore their respective positions in the lineup, everything has an effect on production.  Playing the PP versus not playing it.  Even Crosby would have troubles on a 4th line with Orr/McClement playing 6:00.

So Raymond should sit just because ... well, because Ashton just might explode into an offensive force if he's promoted to the 3rd line?

Sooner or later you have to come around to the bare fact that Raymond has produced and Ashton hasn't.

Because you're making unfair comparisons.  I don't care if Raymond plays more, but sooner or later you're going to have to come around to the bare fact that your comparison is a false equivalency (let's hope I'm using that right) - you're making a comparison of goal production of one player playing with better linemates and playing on the PP versus the goal production of a player playing almost no minutes with bad linemates and no PP time.

How is that even close to a fair comparison?

What I can tell you, man?  If I'm a coach I'm going to play a guy with 14 goals over a guy who has never scored in the league, ever.  30 out of 30 coaches in the league will agree with me, of that I'm quite sure.

 

[Kin]

What I can tell you, man?  If I'm a coach I'm going to play a guy with 14 goals over a guy who has never scored in the league, ever.  30 out of 30 coaches in the league will agree with me, of that I'm quite sure.

I have to assume that most coaches in the league can grasp that these numbers don't exist in a vacuum.

 

[Redleaf]

JVR not playing the final few minutes of tonights game. I'd really prefer he skip the Olympics and rest whatever ails him. We need him and Kessel fresh for the final chunk games leading into the playoffs.

 

[ZBBM]

What I can tell you, man?  If I'm a coach I'm going to play a guy with 14 goals over a guy who has never scored in the league, ever.  30 out of 30 coaches in the league will agree with me, of that I'm quite sure.

I have to assume that most coaches in the league can grasp that these numbers don't exist in a vacuum.

And any coach who would do otherwise has a vacuum between his ears.  * bohhhhzinga *

 

[Bonsixx]

JVR not playing the final few minutes of tonights game. I'd really prefer he skip the Olympics and rest whatever ails him. We need him and Kessel fresh for the final chunk games leading into the playoffs.

Bobby Ryan also prefers that option.