Panthers @ Leafs - Mar. 28th, 7:30pm - SN, Fan 590

[herman]

So you think if Nylander had Marner/Hyman's motor, Nylander would unquestionably be better than Marner?  (Well, you said "no discussion" but it doesn't fit the sentence as well)

I beg to differ.  As good as Nylander is when he's at his best:
a)  Nylander has a better shot- but not by as much as we used to think.  Marner has been sniping for a while now this year.
b)  Nylander is very fast and quite elusive.  What Marner gives up to Nylander in top-speed, he makes up for by being a bit more elusive. I doubt their controlled exit/entry rates are much different and they have slightly different tools to get them.
c)  Nylander is definitely stronger, so you'll see him win more battles where he hasn't necessarily gotten himself in fantastic position.  However, Marner's anticipation is at another level and it allows him to win just as many battles by getting there quicker with his brain and putting his smaller frame in the right position to win.
d)  Where I think Marner exceeds Nylander:  Marner has super-star level vision (and anticipation, as previously mentioned).  Nylander is no slouch (probably top 100), but Marner is a magician both offensively and defensively because of those qualities.

I think if Marner had Nylander's top speed and strength we'd be wondering if he's in Matthews class.

Yeah, going just by the tools available, I believe Nylander is a step above Marner.

Shot:
Nylander's shot is more than just a bit better than Marner's. When Marner's shot misses, it pops into the middle of the circles. When Nylander misses, it bounds out to the red line. Obviously Marner's misses are more useful, but clearly Nylander's is a fair bit faster. It is a deceptively heavy, heavy wrister/snapper and ridiculously accurate. Nylander has a tendancy to aim for the prettiest placement which isn't always ideal.

Passing vision:
Nylander's vision probably as good as Marner's (they both map out the zone very well and know where everyone is and heading) but we don't see it on display as much because Nylander is also looking to shoot more than Marner does. Nylander's passes are also a bit heavy so it depends on his linemates' abilities to handle it (Matthews is fine, Hyman needs ideal circumstances). Marner's passing is fantastic too, but he gets to show it off in more interesting ways as his lines are generally more E-W focused than Matthews/Nylander's N-S.

Marner's been feasting on opposition with two standard (for him) plays:
1) the pass to the Scoring Funnel of Chaos from the half-wall. Our structure gives him three options to choose from: Kadri bumper, JvR on the doorstep, or Bozak on the seam. It's a cushy deployment.
2) the backhand reverse: when he comes back up the OZ to the blueline (facing south), he almost always delivers a backpass North to whoever is switching with him and he uses that motion to also twist North to become a give-and-go. It's a very confident play that teams can pretty easily burn the Leafs on if they ever notice.

Speed/Agility:
Raw speed goes to Nylander, we both agree. Elusiveness is probably Marner's at this point, but that's also a function of size. Both of them have great edges and seem to be even faster with the puck than without. Nylander is stronger on the walls and often holds it through multiple checks. Marner needs more space to hang onto the puck; at least when he doesn't get it, he busts his hump to get back. He had a lot of practice covering for JvR-Bozak.

 

[herman]

I'm not even really sure Nylander and Marner's drive/intensity/compete level/"motor" are all that different.

They both play hard and want to win. On top of making it look effortless most of the time with that ridiculously perfect stride, sometimes Nylander will take the easy route or minimalist approach. Marner always looks like he's gunning it.

 

[Coco-puffs]

So you think if Nylander had Marner/Hyman's motor, Nylander would unquestionably be better than Marner?  (Well, you said "no discussion" but it doesn't fit the sentence as well)

I beg to differ.  As good as Nylander is when he's at his best:
a)  Nylander has a better shot- but not by as much as we used to think.  Marner has been sniping for a while now this year.
b)  Nylander is very fast and quite elusive.  What Marner gives up to Nylander in top-speed, he makes up for by being a bit more elusive. I doubt their controlled exit/entry rates are much different and they have slightly different tools to get them.
c)  Nylander is definitely stronger, so you'll see him win more battles where he hasn't necessarily gotten himself in fantastic position.  However, Marner's anticipation is at another level and it allows him to win just as many battles by getting there quicker with his brain and putting his smaller frame in the right position to win.
d)  Where I think Marner exceeds Nylander:  Marner has super-star level vision (and anticipation, as previously mentioned).  Nylander is no slouch (probably top 100), but Marner is a magician both offensively and defensively because of those qualities.

I think if Marner had Nylander's top speed and strength we'd be wondering if he's in Matthews class.

Yeah, going just by the tools available, I believe Nylander is a step above Marner.

Yeah we certainly disagree here.  I read all your points that came after that statement and I still maintain Marner has better vision (the difference isn't big though, so we are grasping at straws a bit in saying one is BETTER than the other- I think its personal bias here and I will admit that).

Furthermore, Nylander definitely shoots harder- but fuck man, how many times does he miss the damn net.  Marner, with his weaker shot, has gone far post and in how often?  Placement matters and Marner seems to have a slight edge on that right now.  Ask Nazem Kadri how much the lack of a hard shot is hurting him in the goal scoring department.

Finally, you declined to address one of the biggest tools some of the greatest players in the NHL have:  Anticipation.  Nylander seems to react much more than be ahead of the play like Marner is.

 

[herman]

Finally, you declined to address one of the biggest tools some of the greatest players in the NHL have:  Anticipation.  Nylander seems to react much more than be ahead of the play like Marner is.

That's too subjective for me to say anything useful about and I don't know exactly how to measure this to verify what my eyes see and my brain thinks. I think they're both really good at this.

What I really enjoy about this wrestling match about which player is better is that they're both ours, and not even the best in our lineup.

 

[ZBBM]

Debates on this board used to be about whether Clarke Wilm or Garry Valk would be better choices for trying to protect a lead.

Evolution is a beautiful thing.

 

[Chris]

Regarding the Marner/Nylander debate. At the beginning of the year I would have said Nylander was the better player, no doubt. But Marner has shown me a lot this year. I'm surprised at his tenacity and effectiveness along the boards. He does get knocked off the puck maybe more easily than Nylander, but he isn't afraid to get in there and wins his share of battles for someone his size. I think he's more effective in that regard than Bozak or JVR. He needs to be careful though, he's recently taken some heavy hits and looked a bit shaken up afterwards.

Nylander definitely has a harder shot but man, it gets blocked or misses the net...a lot. It sometimes seems like he get frustrated or doesn't know what to do and shoots into a crowd by default, like he loses patience. Of course other times he'll circle the zone a couple of times and eventually find someone open (usually Matthews) for a good shot. Overall I don't know if he would be as good driving a line as Marner is. I'd like to see someone other than Hyman on the top line for a while, either Kapanen (preferably) or Johnsson to see how that changes the dynamic. It might open things up even more for that group since Hyman is largely a black hole in terms of offense.