Phaneuf To Sens

[ZBBM]

http://theleafsnation.com/2016/2/10/a-farewell-to-a-captain

A decent little write-up of Dion' tenure in Toronto.

Much of what he writes is true, but what baffles me is why his offense dried up.  Sure, he was never going to keep scoring at the pace he did in best Calgary years -- that was a Kulemin-30-goals-level anomaly -- but he went, what, months there at the end w/o a PP goal?  Hard to figure.

In any case, like Lou said, they had to make this deal.  Dion's tenure as C will be remembered as the capstone of Burke's abortive plans.

I think part of it was quality of competition and the amount he was asked to play. I think when you're not an elite guy, you have to conserve energy somewhat when you're out there for 25+ minutes a night against the best players in the league.

As far as the PP goes, he should have been better, but a lot of his success came from having a PP in Calgary that was designed to have him open for the bomb from the point. They also used Iginla backdoor so that teams couldn't focus solely on closing down the point.

Simply put he was asked to be something he wasn't in Toronto and it's hard to really blame him for that, I wish him well in Ottawa.

And I guess I blame Burke for misjudging his upside.  Still, I have to admit (as the writer points out) practically everyone back then thought he was going to elite, if he already wasn't.

 

[cabber24]

http://theleafsnation.com/2016/2/10/a-farewell-to-a-captain

A decent little write-up of Dion' tenure in Toronto.

Much of what he writes is true, but what baffles me is why his offense dried up.  Sure, he was never going to keep scoring at the pace he did in best Calgary years -- that was a Kulemin-30-goals-level anomaly -- but he went, what, months there at the end w/o a PP goal?  Hard to figure.

In any case, like Lou said, they had to make this deal.  Dion's tenure as C will be remembered as the capstone of Burke's abortive plans.

After his rookie season I thought he was going to be Pronger Jr. I had grouped him with Crosby and Ovie as players you would love to build a team around. He got soft pretty quick and less angry. He lost his edge. His very selective fighting always drove me nuts too. Always seemed to only fight smaller guys. I just don't think he had the edge he started with. Pronger never lost his edge ever and like it or not it helped him.

 

[Kin]

Much of what he writes is true, but what baffles me is why his offense dried up.  Sure, he was never going to keep scoring at the pace he did in best Calgary years -- that was a Kulemin-30-goals-level anomaly -- but he went, what, months there at the end w/o a PP goal?  Hard to figure.

Well, except a defenseman's ability to score on a PP has to do with a lot of factors and their own ability is just one of them. The fact that the Leafs have essentially nobody who's a huge concern on the PP is a pretty big deal.

His Calgary numbers were the result of some seasons where because of how many penalties were called everyone's numbers are screwy and I think he was always overvalued by the people who think that throwing big hits means someone is a really good defender. I don't think anyone ever asked why Phaneuf was available when they traded him with the skepticism it deserved.

 

[Captain Canuck]

Colin Greening will join the Leafs, not the Marlies: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/greening-set-to-join-injury-depleted-maple-leafs/

Got me thinking about how many Newfoundlanders have played for the Leafs, was kind of surprised to find Greening would be just the 4th ever! 

Alex Faulkner (1 game)
Joe Lundrigan (49 games)
Harold Druken (14 games)

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Murray was on Sportsnet talking about how his experience and trust with Lamoriello helped get a deal done (and quickly).

 

[herman]

Murray was on Sportsnet talking about how his experience and trust with Lamoriello helped get a deal done (and quickly).

If this is the only thing Lou does for the rest of his time with us, I'd say it was worth it.

 

[bustaheims]

Got me thinking about how many Newfoundlanders have played for the Leafs, was kind of surprised to find Greening would be just the 4th ever! 

Well, there's only been 28 Newfoundlanders that have played NHL regular season or playoff games, so, it probably shouldn't be that much of a surprise.

 

[Highlander]

Don't give him a ring unless it is a Stanley Cup ring. Not!

 

[x.jr.benchwarmer]

So whose return was more disappointing/less than one would have expected -- Kessel or Phaneuf?  My vote goes to Kessel.

I, for one, think that the Kessel trade was not a good one at the time for the Leafs, nor has it gotten that much better.

The two players the Leafs have are very very mediocre.

Kappanan seems to be playing better with the Marlies, but I don't think that the consensus is that he will be an impact player in the future.

And the first round draft pick for the Leafs may very well be in the middle of the first round which might not wind up being a front line player.

But the worst thing is that the Leafs still had to retain part of Kessel's salary.  They could easily have waited to determine if the market might change to ensure that they didn't have to retain salary, and the timing of the trade was not necessary, IMHO.

The Phaneuf deal is fantastic for the Leafs, IMHO.  In fact, even those commentators who thought that he was a fine/good/  defencemen really haven't argued that the Leafs were in any position to get more than a 2nd rounder and a 4th rounder prospect.  I suggest that this illustrates that all GM's in the NHL really didn't think that he was a front line defenceman, coupled with the ridiculous Noonis contract that saddled the Leafs for  basically 7 years.

 

[Kin]

But the worst thing is that the Leafs still had to retain part of Kessel's salary.  They could easily have waited to determine if the market might change to ensure that they didn't have to retain salary, and the timing of the trade was not necessary, IMHO.

Based on what we've seen from Kessel this year the idea that waiting would have resulted in a better market is far from a sure thing. In fact, I'd bet his value is lower now.

 

[Highlander]

Agreed Nik, Kessels value seems to be dropping like Oil prices.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

[tweet]697576994591154176[/tweet]
[tweet]697602929608540161[/tweet]

 

[bustaheims]

Doing a wonderful job of winning over that pesky sens fan.

 

[Kin]

The play by Nyquist there is what I was referring to in the NHL thread. Anderson doesn't follow that up with a save and that's the gif that follows Phaneuf around.

 

[hobarth]

Tobias Lindberg, the media analysis by Button has him as a B prospect, a 2nd or 3rd liner, I've checked Future Watch 2015 by THN and Sportsnet's Forecaster, both list Ottawa's top 10 prospects and neither include him? 

 

[x.jr.benchwarmer]

But the worst thing is that the Leafs still had to retain part of Kessel's salary.  They could easily have waited to determine if the market might change to ensure that they didn't have to retain salary, and the timing of the trade was not necessary, IMHO.

Based on what we've seen from Kessel this year the idea that waiting would have resulted in a better market is far from a sure thing. In fact, I'd bet his value is lower now.

I agree that, in hindsight, Kessel's value may not be perceived higher today than in July.  But the market, now, ostensibly is that even Phaneuf's salary doesn't need to be retained.  And Kessel is much more attractive a trade option than Phaneuf ever would be now, or in the future.  And if the market still is that Kessel's salary in part would have to be retained, why would the Leafs have to make a trade then or now?  Phaneuf was virtually untradeable, but for recent discussions with Murray in Ottawa.  Aside from that, was there any other team that was even interested in him or taking on his contract?  I'm not sure there was.

 

[Kin]

I agree that, in hindsight, Kessel's value may not be perceived higher today than in July.  But the market, now, ostensibly is that even Phaneuf's salary doesn't need to be retained.  And Kessel is much more attractive a trade option than Phaneuf ever would be now, or in the future.

The only reason the Leafs didn't need to retain salary was because they were willing to give Phaneuf away for such a low asset cost. I'm sure if they were willing to give Kessel away for nothing they probably could have gotten him completely off the books as well.

And if the market still is that Kessel's salary in part would have to be retained, why would the Leafs have to make a trade then or now?

Because they're rebuilding. Trading the pieces on your roster for cap space/young assets is an integral part of that. They didn't "have" to trade Phaneuf either.

Phaneuf was virtually untradeable, but for recent discussions with Murray in Ottawa.  Aside from that, was there any other team that was even interested in him or taking on his contract?  I'm not sure there was.

By almost all reports Detroit was interested last year, the Leafs were just faced with the reality that, like with Kessel, they'd have to eat a bad contract/retain salary if they wanted real assets back.  I don't think Phaneuf's value dropped this year, they just eventually gave up on the idea that they'd get significant assets for him and made a trade where they got very little for him and had to eat less bad contracts.

Ultimately they might very well have been in that situation with Kessel if they'd hung onto him and he'd had the kind of year he's having. They had to bet on which way the market would break with Kessel and right now it looks pretty clear that they made the right bet.

 

[ensco]

The business side of this has been reported horribly.

The Leafs ate far more of Phaneuf's contract (between a quarter and a third) than they did Kessel's (around 15%). Taking back excess salary is the same as eating salary (except it's actually worse financially, because it's accelerated, in the Phaneuf case - which we all like because it accelerates the cap hit).

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The business side of this has been reported horribly.

The Leafs ate far more of Phaneuf's contract (between a quarter and a third) than they did Kessel's (around 15%). Taking back excess salary is the same as eating salary (except it's actually worse financially, because it's accelerated, in the Phaneuf case - which we all like because it accelerates the cap hit).

The business side of this doesn't really matter to MLSE. Look at the Clarkson for Horton trade, they're clearly fine with having to eat money if it means giving the Leafs a better chance to win in the future.

 

[herman]

This was just the Leafs pressing its financial advantages in a salary cap league. Same concept as spending on the best management people, analytics teams, skills developers, highly-sought coaching staff, etc.

There's a tremendous business case for making repeated deep playoff runs and potentially winning a Cup; the Clarkson, Kessel, and Phaneuf trades are a re-investment towards that goal.