Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock

[Bullfrog]

Outside of Matthews, I don't the listed players have been underutilized. It'd be nice if Rielly was in the top 10 in TOI/g, but that's an adjustment of about 60 seconds.

and I'm not necessary defending Babcock here, just questioning the claim that the Leafs aren't developing.

 

[Fanatic]

Cutting bait on babcock isn?t a reaction to this series.  It?s his overall body of work for the leafs.  It?s been an underwhelming 4 years. 

Is that fair? I am all for having the discussion about it being time for him to go, but I would not say that all 4 years was underwhelming.

Year 1 - they tanked and they got the pick (Matthews) that they wanted
Year 2 - drafted Matthews, started playing Marner, and signed Freddie -  got 95 points and made the playoffs - this was more than expected
Year 3 - highest points season in leafs history - played hard in playoffs, but ultimately beat by a better team
Year 4 - this is where things fall flat for me - big start and then all kinds of trouble from Dec to April

 

[lc9]

I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything won?t change. He is who he is.  The leafs aren?t developing the way the should be.  How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night?  He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?

I think some of your criticisms here are fair, but I'm not sure how you can claim the Leafs aren't developing. Do you mean the players or the team as a whole? Individually, some players have made huge strides: Matthews, Rielly, Johnsson, Marner, Kapanen, eve.

Team as a whole.  Individual development is great, but that doesn?t mean anything if you don?t win.  The lack of adjustments is scary. It absolutly defies logic. 

 

[Zee]

Cutting bait on babcock isn?t a reaction to this series.  It?s his overall body of work for the leafs.  It?s been an underwhelming 4 years. 

Is that fair? I am all for having the discussion about it being time for him to go, but I would not say that all 4 years was underwhelming.

Year 1 - they tanked and they got the pick (Matthews) that they wanted
Year 2 - drafted Matthews, started playing Marner, and signed Freddie -  got 95 points and made the playoffs - this was more than expected
Year 3 - highest points season in leafs history - played hard in playoffs, but ultimately beat by a better team
Year 4 - this is where things fall flat for me - big start and then all kinds of trouble from Dec to April

If he only had a 5 year contract I think it would be more talked about letting him go.  The fact he still has 4 years remaining as opposed to 1 makes people think it's not going to happen.  Years 1-3 were perfect in terms of doing what they needed, team building and all that, but in year 4 they should have taken the next step.  He's not a rookie coach, he's an experienced Cup winner that should have been able to get more from this roster.

 

[cabber24]

Just looked up #firebabcock on twitter... wow.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Cutting bait on babcock isn?t a reaction to this series.  It?s his overall body of work for the leafs.  It?s been an underwhelming 4 years. 

Is that fair? I am all for having the discussion about it being time for him to go, but I would not say that all 4 years was underwhelming.

Year 1 - they tanked and they got the pick (Matthews) that they wanted
Year 2 - drafted Matthews, started playing Marner, and signed Freddie -  got 95 points and made the playoffs - this was more than expected
Year 3 - highest points season in leafs history - played hard in playoffs, but ultimately beat by a better team
Year 4 - this is where things fall flat for me - big start and then all kinds of trouble from Dec to April

If he only had a 5 year contract I think it would be more talked about letting him go.  The fact he still has 4 years remaining as opposed to 1 makes people think it's not going to happen.  Years 1-3 were perfect in terms of doing what they needed, team building and all that, but in year 4 they should have taken the next step.  He's not a rookie coach, he's an experienced Cup winner that should have been able to get more from this roster.

Bab's biggest failures were his utilization of Matthews and the crappy special teams. All are in his control and to be very blunt, he shit the bed here. There's way too much talent not to have one of the best PP's in the league. As for the PK, his blind loyalty to guys like Hyman, Hainsey, Zaitsev and whoever else he used on the pk were his downfall. News flash. The PK wasn't good since NOV yet they never changed up the personal or put a better plan in place. That's all on coaching.

 

[Deebo]

I wouldn't be opposed to change, but I just can't see it happening.

 

[herman]

https://theathletic.com/943129/2019/04/24/bourne-why-firing-mike-babcock-or-making-knee-jerk-reactions-that-affects-the-leafs-core-would-be-foolish/

Complaining about what's wrong is fun and all, but providing solutions is where the money's made.

Bourne touches on the healthy tension that Dubas and Babcock's differences can foster progress with.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Babs isn't getting the can tied to him and I don't see the core going anywhere. You don't trade from weakness. I think Dubas, Shanny and Babs have a nice chat about what they thought he should have done. I also think Dubas will take more of Babs' favs away like he did last year. I say Babs gets one more shot at this group.

 

[Zee]

Babs isn't getting the can tied to him and I don't see the core going anywhere. You don't trade from weakness. I think Dubas, Shanny and Babs have a nice chat about what they thought he should have done. I also think Dubas will take more of Babs' favs away like he did last year. I say Babs gets one more shot at this group.

I have no faith that Babcock will learn anything from this failure. I can see us 12 months from now complaining again now Babcock kept rolling 4 lines while down in the 3rd period.  Connor Brown baby, I know he can score big goals because he scored against Pittsburgh to get us into the playoffs 4 years ago!

 

[Guilt Trip]

Babs isn't getting the can tied to him and I don't see the core going anywhere. You don't trade from weakness. I think Dubas, Shanny and Babs have a nice chat about what they thought he should have done. I also think Dubas will take more of Babs' favs away like he did last year. I say Babs gets one more shot at this group.

I have no faith that Babcock will learn anything from this failure. I can see us 12 months from now complaining again now Babcock kept rolling 4 lines while down in the 3rd period.  Connor Brown baby, I know he can score big goals because he scored against Pittsburgh to get us into the playoffs 4 years ago!

Sadly, I can see the same thing. If Dubas and company don't think Babs will adjust, then he needs to go. Pretty simple.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.

We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.

We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.

Why does even have to come to that?  Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys.  Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch". 

But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night.  It's insanity. 

Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference.  How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions? 

 

[BermudaBudsFan]

I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.

We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.

Why does even have to come to that?  Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys.  Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch". 

But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night.  It's insanity. 

Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference.  How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions?

There is simply too much at stake.  It?s the best talent in years, maybe more. The window is limited.  If Babcock doesn?t give you the best chance, he should be gone.  It may also be Dubas? career if doesn?t work, but he has to take the chance.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.

We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.

Why does even have to come to that?  Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys.  Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch". 

But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night.  It's insanity. 

Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference.  How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions?

I thought it was interesting that Matthews, Tavares and Marner all took the exact same number of shifts in game 7. Apparently Matthews kept his shorter.

 

[Frank E]

I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.

We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.

Why does even have to come to that?  Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys.  Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch". 

But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night.  It's insanity. 

Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference.  How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions?

I thought it was interesting that Matthews, Tavares and Marner all took the exact same number of shifts in game 7. Apparently Matthews kept his shorter.

Is this true?  Did Matthews have as many shifts as those guys, but just went off sooner?

If that's the case, that's going to throw a big stick in the wheel of most of the posting complaining about Matthews' ice time management last night.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I'm upset like everyone else, but Babcock is not going anywhere. Back-to-back 100+ point seasons, 3 straight years in the playoffs, and multiple team and individual records broken (a sign of growth?). All that with what a lot of us argued were a bunch of rusty mufflers on defence. Dubas needs to take away Hainsey, Zaitsev and Marleau, and hopefully sign a backup that can be trusted with more games. That would be a good start.

We all believe Babs isn't going anywhere but we all know his line management or whatever you call it was horrible in game 7 and most of the year. Like I said, I think they sit down and talk it out and Babs will get 1 more shot at it. If he doesn't improve everything he can control I don't think Dubas will hesitate to dump him.
As for Zaitsev and Marleau, while we hope Dubas can shed these contracts it may be difficult. We can thank Lou for those and I won't hold them against Dubas.

Why does even have to come to that?  Mike isn't a 2 year old where you have to take away his toys.  Why can't Dubas sit down with Mike and say, "Look Mike, we went out in the summer and signed a legit 1st line player in John Tavares, who scored almost 50 goals and we are paying him $11 million dollars a year. We also have Matthews, who scored a bunch, Mitch Marner who scored a bunch". 

But no, Babcock has Marleau out there who scored all of 16 goals all year, and Matthews played 18 minutes last night.  It's insanity. 

Then when questioned last night about Marleau's deployment, he throws a hissy fit and ends the press conference.  How is he going to react to Dubas questioning his coaching decisions?

I thought it was interesting that Matthews, Tavares and Marner all took the exact same number of shifts in game 7. Apparently Matthews kept his shorter.

Is this true?  Did Matthews have as many shifts as those guys, but just went off sooner?

If that's the case, that's going to throw a big stick in the wheel of most of the posting complaining about Matthews' ice time management last night.

It's true and no it won't. Why would it? 2:19 of ice over 27 shifts that JT had, Matthews had 26, works out to 5 seconds a shift. We also don't know when Babs changed the line or Matthews came off himself. All you need to know is this. Even at JT's number of 21:19, that's still not enough for the 2nd leading goal scorer in the playoffs in an elimination game. Did you see Matthews getting out with the 4th line? How about with Willy? Babs did nothing to try and get him and JT more ice and that's unacceptable. Goat shouldn't have seen the ice in the 3rd. Babs should have been running Matthews, Tavares, Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, Tavares etc. Add in the fact that he played Marleau over Willy with the goalie pulled. You know Marleau, the guy who had 8 total shots in 7 games. I mean c'mon. Elliot Friedman I think pointed it out. Matthews played a whopping 4 mins of the first 14 in the 3rd period. That again is unacceptable. Time for Dubas to take away Mike's toys again.

 

[ZBBM]

Dubas is running the show, he's in charge of the coach.  He had the moxie to lure Tavares.  I assume he has the cajones to sit down with Mike and tell him where he found his coaching lacking, in season and in the playoffs.  It's standard performance review stuff.  And Babcock should be able to offer whatever critique he may have of Dubas.  But Dubas is his boss, not the other way round.

And if you're Dubas you don't say to Babcock, "I want you to play Matthews x minutes a night."  That's the coach's decision.  But you can say, "I want to see a system out there that results in 34/91/16/29 with x% TOI/60 -- you figure out how to make it happen."  You can say, "I want to see us in the top X in the league on the PP, and the top Y in the PK -- you figure out how to make it happen."  In other words, you, Dubas, the boss, you set some parameters and let the coach get there.  And if he doesn't, then you decide if it's time to move on.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Dubas is running the show, he's in charge of the coach.  He had the moxie to lure Tavares.  I assume he has the cajones to sit down with Mike and tell him where he found his coaching lacking, in season and in the playoffs.  It's standard performance review stuff.  And Babcock should be able to offer whatever critique he may have of Dubas.  But Dubas is his boss, not the other way round.

And if you're Dubas you don't say to Babcock, "I want you to play Matthews x minutes a night."  That's the coach's decision.  But you can say, "I want to see a system out there that results in 34/91/16/29 with x% TOI/60 -- you figure out how to make it happen."  You can say, "I want to see us in the top X in the league on the PP, and the top Y in the PK -- you figure out how to make it happen."  In other words, you, Dubas, the boss, you set some parameters and let the coach get there.  And if he doesn't, then you decide if it's time to move on.

Agree. Dubas is still going to take his toys away tho me thinks lol.