Pre-Season: Sabres @ Leafs - Sept. 22, 7:00pm - LeafsTV, TSN 1050

[crazyperfectdevil]

clarkson seems to make a lot of snap judgments..this may be a poor one..but i don't know..i'm glad to see his heart is in the right place...i've noticed in this preseason already people going fairly heavily after kessel...we can't have that...

i have to say for my money the real idiot here was miller...what was he doing going with bernier?  he was out for a significant time with concussion...he can't afford to break his hand..and really the goalies have no reason to even go near each other...

 

[Kin]

Pretty sure Tropp started the fight with Devane.

Doesn't mean Devane had to engage, or get involved with what lead to Tropp wanting to fight him. It was unnecessary and stupid, and, well, look at what resulted.

Eh...I'm fine with saying Devane shouldn't have fought, I'm fine saying it's ultimately counter-productive but he can't be blamed for what Scott did or what Rolston might have told Scott to do. The "transgression" of fighting a much smaller player when he instigates it doesn't even come close to sending a guy like Scott out to hit Kessel.

 

[bustaheims]

There are only so many players who can contribute and fight against a legitimate heavy weight.  If you don't have one you still need to have someone who can physically keep your team in the game.  You only have to look at previous example of effect Scott had on Sabres after they were physically demoralized by Bruins last year.

Yeah, because Scott on the roster helped lead a demoralized Sabres team to miss the playoffs. What an important contributor he was. Moreover, the whole "needing heavyweights to face heavyweights" thing is exactly the problem here. If you get rid of the guys who are just there to fight - and, really, that's pretty much all of the real "heavyweights" in the league, it's no longer an issue. There'd still be a couple guys that would be tough to deal with, but, those guys also don't tend to be out there looking for a fight. There are plenty of guys in the league who are perfectly capable of helping to keep their team physically in the game against the bigger, skilled players without having to drop their gloves. Fighting doesn't really equal physicality, either. It doesn't stop the team from being physically dominated against the boards or in front of the net or in the other dirty areas of the ice where having a physical presence is actually important. That's where teams need physical players to keep their team in the game, and being successful in that really involves keeping your gloves on.

 

[bustaheims]

Eh...I'm fine with saying Devane shouldn't have fought, I'm fine saying it's ultimately counter-productive but he can't be blamed for what Scott did or what Rolston might have told Scott to do. The "transgression" of fighting a much smaller player when he instigates it doesn't even come close to sending a guy like Scott out to hit Kessel.

I agree that the reaction from Scott and the Sabres was excessive. I'm just saying it was something that really could have been pretty easily avoided. Carlyle shares a good chunk of the blame here, too. I know he says he wanted to diffuse the situation, but, seeing that Rolston sent Scott out, he could have very easily sent out guys like JvR and Colborne along with Ashton (who he did put out) and accomplished the same thing, while having some bigger bodies out there, as well.

 

[Kin]

I agree that the reaction from Scott and the Sabres was excessive. I'm just saying it was something that really could have been pretty easily avoided. Carlyle shares a good chunk of the blame here, too. I know he says he wanted to diffuse the situation, but, seeing that Rolston sent Scott out, he could have very easily sent out guys like JvR and Colborne along with Ashton (who he did put out) and accomplished the same thing, while having some bigger bodies out there, as well.

It's not that it's excessive so much as it is misplaced. Whatever one might want to say about the "code" it's never been along the lines of "You take a run at Gretzky, we take a run at Lemieux" but, rather, "You take a run at Gretzky, someone takes a run at you". Now, that's its own kind of stupid and we saw the ridiculous consequences of it with the Moore/Bertuzzi thing but there's, at the very least, something...I don't want to say noble but justifiable there. So if Scott had gone after Devane, sure. But going after Kessel isn't a natural result of what Devane did and he shouldn't be held accountable for it. He might have been the catalyst but he wasn't the cause. What Devane did was wrong, but it was a speeding ticket. What Clarkson did was wrong but ultimately I think it shows that no rule should have automatic penalties as situations differ. Scott(and maybe Rolston) are the villains here. Nothing justifies what they did, that's the nonsense that needs to leave the game and idiots like that will always invent justifications for their own existence.

And while I agree with you in general re: Carlyle I don't know that I'd feel much better about it if Scott went after JVR and the same thing resulted.

 

[moon111]

Am I the only one who is surprised by the Sabres antics?  I could see them being upset, but Scott going after Kessel?  Really?  Maybe a fight with Ashton, but not that classless act.  Blaming Carlyle is like blaming the rape victim. 

 

[Captain Canuck]

I get the whole "stick up for your teammates" thing, but that was a pi$$ poor decision by Clarkson! We didn't give this guy a boatload of money so he could sit out the first 10 games of the season!  :

 

[bustaheims]

Blaming Carlyle is like blaming the rape victim.

No. Blaming Kessel is like blaming the rape victim. Blaming Carlyle is like blaming rape culture.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

I agree that the reaction from Scott and the Sabres was excessive. I'm just saying it was something that really could have been pretty easily avoided. Carlyle shares a good chunk of the blame here, too. I know he says he wanted to diffuse the situation, but, seeing that Rolston sent Scott out, he could have very easily sent out guys like JvR and Colborne along with Ashton (who he did put out) and accomplished the same thing, while having some bigger bodies out there, as well.

It's not that it's excessive so much as it is misplaced. Whatever one might want to say about the "code" it's never been along the lines of "You take a run at Gretzky, we take a run at Lemieux" but, rather, "You take a run at Gretzky, someone takes a run at you". Now, that's its own kind of stupid and we saw the ridiculous consequences of it with the Moore/Bertuzzi thing but there's, at the very least, something...I don't want to say noble but justifiable there. So if Scott had gone after Devane, sure. But going after Kessel isn't a natural result of what Devane did and he shouldn't be held accountable for it. He might have been the catalyst but he wasn't the cause. What Devane did was wrong, but it was a speeding ticket. What Clarkson did was wrong but ultimately I think it shows that no rule should have automatic penalties as situations differ. Scott(and maybe Rolston) are the villains here. Nothing justifies what they did, that's the nonsense that needs to leave the game and idiots like that will always invent justifications for their own existence.

And while I agree with you in general re: Carlyle I don't know that I'd feel much better about it if Scott went after JVR and the same thing resulted.

And the irony in all of this will be that Devane, Scott and most likely Rolston will get zero punishment, while Clarkson will get 10 and Kessel may get a game or two. What message is the league trying to send again?

If this had been Orr or Mclaren going after Crosby this would be a bigger story.

Also Busta, if bigger guys had turned down every small combatant in the history of the NHL then there would have been a good few careers that never happened (Domi, Tucker to name just a couple leafs). If you go at a guy (I mean really go at a guy) then you should be open to the possibility that you'll get clocked. Ever wonder why Phaneuf hasn't dropped a glove and thrown a punch at Chara?

The kid made a mistake and will have to learn from it. He made his own foolish decision and suffered the consequences (he's fought enough in career so far to have known better). As Nik said, the "code" thing to do, would've been to let Scott sort out Devane. What they did was bush league and has no place in the game.

 

[Rebel_1812]

Not too mention that the building was full of people going wild as the crap happened tonight.  And those are the people paying the freight.  The day might come when that style of hockey is not popular but it's no where near there yet.

So, basically, what you're saying here is that, because it appeals to the lowest common denominator, it's good? Because, I mean, there would have been just as many butts in those seats if there wasn't a single fight in the league, and the Leafs and the league would have made just as much money. People don't go to games to see fights they have the UFC for that.

I find your elitist sentiments to be laughable.

 

[Rebel_1812]

Some thoughts.

Devane doesn't really have an option to walk away from that fight. This is a preseason game, he's fighting for a job and it wouldn't matter what team he was trying to earn that job with. For that matter so is Tropp while also having some nhl experience under his belt, he should know better if that matters..., anywho being a bigger man here doesn't earn Jamie the result he's looking for in this case nor does it earn Tropp anything for not trying. I do wonder if Tropp banged his head on the ice...

Did Bozak get jumped in that line scrum and look relatively hapless (hopeless) ?...I see 5 minutes for Ruhwedel but only a 10 minute misconduct for Bozie...

If Gardiner can bring those kinds of moments over a season we have a special player on our hands.

Bernier played and fought well, nice to see... shades of Potvin though no Hextall.

Did Lupul play?

Clarkson should know better, dumb, however this may come back to the Leafs as an 'all for one' moment, if they have any success. Still, dumb.

Kessel seems like he's playing tougher, and a little crazier , hopefully that bodes well as it seemed to tonight.

When it comes to the Leafs I always hope for the best but fear the blue and white auger's well may have run dry again, I think they're in decent shape overall, hopefully that's a well founded notion.

I agree he has been slashing people left and right in the preseason.

 

[TML fan]

I thought Kessel slashing at Schenn earlier in the preseason was excessive and uncalled for, but I honestly can't blame him for trying to chop that tree down tonight.

 

[L K]

I'm really not a huge fan of fighting in hockey in general but I'm having a hard time understanding why Devane is at fault in the situation.  Devane is a fighter.  Right now the two fighters on the team are injured and he has a legitimate chance of making the team. 

Corey Tropp in 2010-2011 had 9 fights in the AHL.  In 2011-2012 he had 7 fights.  Last year he didn't really fight but he isn't exactly a guy with a perfectly clean record in terms of dropping the gloves.  Tropp challenged Devane at a point in the game where Buffalo had closed the gap on the Leafs from 4-1 to 4-3. 

If ever there was a time for a fighter to try and change momentum for his team, that would be it.  The Leafs were playing flat.  That to me is when you want a guy to fight (as long as the NHL is going to continue to allow fighting).  Fight when you team needs a momentum boost, not when you have a prearranged bout with another useless player.

The fight itself was lopsided.  Devane beat him up, but the bigger issue is that he happened to get a solid hit square on the nose.  It stunned him.  I don't like to see that but it does happen in fights and I'm not sure why it is Devane's fault again when he was challenged for a fight, he accepted and landed a clean blow.  The real damage I think came when Tropp fell to the ice and hit his head.  I think its reasonable to think that he might have a concussion, but it is also quite possible that he might have just banged his head on the ice and been "dazed" rather than truly having a concussion.  Time will tell in the next day or so.

Devane didn't gloat over the fight.  He skated away immediately.  When he heard the trainer being called for he turned back but did the right thing and stayed away from the situation.  He didn't grandstand in the pressbox.  He just went to the box like he should.

Tropp has fought enough to know not to do something stupid like A) Challenge a guy outside his size B) Challenge a guy outside his fighting ability C) Spend the entire fight not protecting your face in any way.   

So bottom line, a guy who has actually had a fair number of fights in his career so far challenged a guy trying to make an impact in Carlyle's eyes.  The fight happens at a point in the game where the Leafs could benefit from a momentum shift.  Devane wins the fight in a lopsided manner but doesn't grandstand to the crowd or continue to hit a defenseless guy.  Scott creates his own code and chases after Kessel for no real valid reason afterward.  Somehow that is Devane's fault.

 

[L K]

Eh...I'm fine with saying Devane shouldn't have fought, I'm fine saying it's ultimately counter-productive but he can't be blamed for what Scott did or what Rolston might have told Scott to do. The "transgression" of fighting a much smaller player when he instigates it doesn't even come close to sending a guy like Scott out to hit Kessel.

I agree that the reaction from Scott and the Sabres was excessive. I'm just saying it was something that really could have been pretty easily avoided. Carlyle shares a good chunk of the blame here, too. I know he says he wanted to diffuse the situation, but, seeing that Rolston sent Scott out, he could have very easily sent out guys like JvR and Colborne along with Ashton (who he did put out) and accomplished the same thing, while having some bigger bodies out there, as well.

JVR - 1 career fight
Colborne - 4 career fights
Ashton - 8 career professional fights

(Tropp - 18 career fights)

Aside from being physically bigger than Kessel, I'm not sure what the reason is to send out those three guys.  They weren't playing as a line, so Carlyle is obligated to engage Scott but intentionally creating a lineup to either allow a useless and unjustifed fight or predict a line brawl?  That to me is insanity.  Scott had no business fighting anyone other than Devane in that situation (and I'm not really sure of the deserved justification on that one either).  Carlyle had a game to coach/win and Scott jumping Kessel really shouldn't have been something you should expect/predict happening after a routine fight that just happened to be lopsided.

 

[drummond]

The identity of the team has changed immensely. I for one believe it is good.

I am not a fan of staged fights, but this Scott thing was exactely why you should have some toughness on the team. I like the one for all, all for one mentality. I really do not want see that emotionless reaction on Jensen going after Kaberle incident again. I am not advocating empolying goons, but general tougness, guys who can drop them if necessary.

This is far from over, I believe John Scott will face Frazer Mclaren sooner or later, which is again OK. He must be tought that jumping on opponents best player is something he is really not supposed to do. Clarkson no doubt told him that while pushing with eachother, for which he gets 10 game suspension, while Scott gets probably nothing, hence the lesson which is I guess about to come.

Don Cherry is going to be ecstatic.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Eh...I'm fine with saying Devane shouldn't have fought, I'm fine saying it's ultimately counter-productive but he can't be blamed for what Scott did or what Rolston might have told Scott to do. The "transgression" of fighting a much smaller player when he instigates it doesn't even come close to sending a guy like Scott out to hit Kessel.

I agree that the reaction from Scott and the Sabres was excessive. I'm just saying it was something that really could have been pretty easily avoided. Carlyle shares a good chunk of the blame here, too. I know he says he wanted to diffuse the situation, but, seeing that Rolston sent Scott out, he could have very easily sent out guys like JvR and Colborne along with Ashton (who he did put out) and accomplished the same thing, while having some bigger bodies out there, as well.

JVR - 1 career fight
Colborne - 4 career fights
Ashton - 8 career professional fights

(Tropp - 18 career fights)

Aside from being physically bigger than Kessel, I'm not sure what the reason is to send out those three guys.  They weren't playing as a line, so Carlyle is obligated to engage Scott but intentionally creating a lineup to either allow a useless and unjustifed fight or predict a line brawl?  That to me is insanity.  Scott had no business fighting anyone other than Devane in that situation (and I'm not really sure of the deserved justification on that one either).  Carlyle had a game to coach/win and Scott jumping Kessel really shouldn't have been something you should expect/predict happening after a routine fight that just happened to be lopsided.

I completely agree.

 

[maplesyrup]

Just saw the highlights. Yeah, not sure what Clarkson was thinking there. I'm pretty disappointed. - Both with his brain cramp and the impending suspension.

 

[Hampreacher]

If Scott came on ice as line replacement for Tropp is he not technically coming off bench to start a fight after a fight has started, as play had not resumed. Both Scott and Rolston should be suspended too!

 

[CarltonTheBear]

It's funny that crap like this is used to justify why you need fighting in the game when if fighting wasn't allowed none of this would have even happened.

A star player in the league gets jumped by a useless goon and the star is the one who is likely to be punished. Only in the NHL...

 

[Bullfrog]

JVR - 1 career fight
Colborne - 4 career fights
Ashton - 8 career professional fights

(Tropp - 18 career fights)

Aside from being physically bigger than Kessel, I'm not sure what the reason is to send out those three guys.  They weren't playing as a line, so Carlyle is obligated to engage Scott but intentionally creating a lineup to either allow a useless and unjustifed fight or predict a line brawl?  That to me is insanity.  Scott had no business fighting anyone other than Devane in that situation (and I'm not really sure of the deserved justification on that one either).  Carlyle had a game to coach/win and Scott jumping Kessel really shouldn't have been something you should expect/predict happening after a routine fight that just happened to be lopsided.

Agreed. Aside from Kessel being a star, it'd be just as bad if Scott went after Colborne.