Pre-Season: Sabres @ Leafs - Sept. 22, 7:00pm - LeafsTV, TSN 1050

[AvroArrow]

Scott's an idiot but he didn't actually do much of anything because Kessel got out of there in a hurry.  I don't think it is comparable in the least to what Bertuzzi did - and not sure how an attack from behind on an unsuspecting player is the same as Scott telling Kessel ahead of time that he was going to fight him, and then not actually getting to fight him.

And we shouldn't pretend like acts are allowed to happen in sports that aren't in day-to-day life all the time without criminal charges. 

Slashing - would be a charge
Checking - would be a charge
Fighting - would be a charge

etc, etc.

Heck, almost any physical play could be, so if we're not considering a 2:00 slashing penalty and such to be aggravated assault, then what is the aggravated assault in this case?

You're right in that he didn't actually commit the assault in this case.  I wasn't trying to say he did.  I was merely pointing out that in sports, there's a line between what's considered 'part of the game' and what's not.

HAD Scott managed to grab Kessel and pound him into the ground, then, in my opinion, that could be considered assault.  It was not a hockey play.

I will pre-emptively agree that even if Scott managed to get some punches in, it probably still wouldn't result in charges - I don't think the end result would have been that bad, given people would have jumped in immediately, like they did when Kessel escaped.  However, a situation like this (one that's the result of a player going outside the normal boundaries of hockey) could have resulted in much more serious violence that probably would have resulted in criminal charges.

Again, I'm just saying that there's a line between what's considered 'part of the game' and what's not.  Just because a sport contains things like body-checks, etc does not mean it's open season on violence.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Where in North America can you get away with aggravated assault?

So every play in football is assault.

There is a mutual understanding on the part of the players.  A 6'8" goon chasing you around the ice looking to cave your face in really isn't part of hockey. 

 

[louisstamos]

DGB has a great (and as usual, hilarious) write up of the whole incident:

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/75402/that-escalated-quickly-your-guide-to-toronto-and-buffalos-crazy-nhl-preseason-brawl

 

[Peter D.]

I don't know, if some behemoth tells me he's gonna attack me, I'm not waiting for him to have the upper hand.  I'll defend aggressively first with whatever means necessary.  I have no issue with what Kessel did.  That wasn't a hockey situation - that was a threat of attack.

If this is the case, I'm surprised Chara hasn't faced this type of situation numerous times.

 

[TML fan]

You can't two hand people with your stick, defending yourself or not.

I don't know, if some behemoth tells me he's gonna attack me, I'm not waiting for him to have the upper hand.  I'll defend aggressively first with whatever means necessary.  I have no issue with what Kessel did.  That wasn't a hockey situation - that was a threat of attack.

I don't have an issue with it either. I'm just saying that the league would be remiss if they didn't hand out some kind of discipline for a two handed slash like that. They'd have probably let the first one slide, but not the 2nd.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Grabovski on Kessel: "How do you say in English? Like a musketeer. Swish! Swish! Swish!"

 

[Redleaf]

All right, so here's a question for someone.....busta?

Considering that it looks as though Clarkson is still eligible to play in the remaining preseason games, and the fact that his 10 game suspension does not affect the cap in any way because it is a suspension and not an injury, what if he were to be injured in one of the remaining preseason games? Would that provide any cap relief while he serves his suspension?

 

[AvroArrow]

You can't two hand people with your stick, defending yourself or not.

I don't know, if some behemoth tells me he's gonna attack me, I'm not waiting for him to have the upper hand.  I'll defend aggressively first with whatever means necessary.  I have no issue with what Kessel did.  That wasn't a hockey situation - that was a threat of attack.

I don't have an issue with it either. I'm just saying that the league would be remiss if they didn't hand out some kind of discipline for a two handed slash like that. They'd have probably let the first one slide, but not the 2nd.

Fair enough, I can understand that.

 

[pnjunction]

So now we actually have to fit another player under the cap for the first 10 games.  Dumb dumb dumb.

 

[TML fan]

You can't two hand people with your stick, defending yourself or not.

I don't know, if some behemoth tells me he's gonna attack me, I'm not waiting for him to have the upper hand.  I'll defend aggressively first with whatever means necessary.  I have no issue with what Kessel did.  That wasn't a hockey situation - that was a threat of attack.

I don't have an issue with it either. I'm just saying that the league would be remiss if they didn't hand out some kind of discipline for a two handed slash like that. They'd have probably let the first one slide, but not the 2nd.

Fair enough, I can understand that.

Yeah don't get me wrong, if I gave up 100 pounds on some goon trying to break my face I'd be using whatever I had in my hand as well. I just don't think the league can afford to view it that way.

 

[Redleaf]

You can't two hand people with your stick, defending yourself or not.

I don't know, if some behemoth tells me he's gonna attack me, I'm not waiting for him to have the upper hand.  I'll defend aggressively first with whatever means necessary.  I have no issue with what Kessel did.  That wasn't a hockey situation - that was a threat of attack.

I don't have an issue with it either. I'm just saying that the league would be remiss if they didn't hand out some kind of discipline for a two handed slash like that. They'd have probably let the first one slide, but not the 2nd.

Fair enough, I can understand that.

Yeah don't get me wrong, if I gave up 100 pounds on some goon trying to break my face I'd be using whatever I had in my hand as well. I just don't think the league can afford to view it that way.

I think the fit is gonna hit the 'Shan' if Kessel gets a regular season game suspension or two when all is said and done.

 

[bustaheims]

All right, so here's a question for someone.....busta?

Considering that it looks as though Clarkson is still eligible to play in the remaining preseason games, and the fact that his 10 game suspension does not affect the cap in any way because it is a suspension and not an injury, what if he were to be injured in one of the remaining preseason games? Would that provide any cap relief while he serves his suspension?

No. Suspension over rules injury. On top of that, the cap relief would only begin to kick in after 10 games or 24 days, unless it was a situation where it was clear Clarkson would miss at least that much time. Nevertheless, that's a moot point. He counts against the cap for those 10 games, no matter what happens to him for the rest of the pre-season.

 

[bustaheims]

I'm just saying that the league would be remiss if they didn't hand out some kind of discipline for a two handed slash like that. They'd have probably let the first one slide, but not the 2nd.

I think the first slash would have ended up with just a fine. Even in self defence, the league wouldn't have just let it slide, but, they wouldn't have been particularly harsh about it, either. The 2nd one almost certainly will end up getting him suspended - likely for the rest of the pre-season and not for any regular season games.

 

[LittleHockeyFan]

DGB has a great (and as usual, hilarious) write up of the whole incident:

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/75402/that-escalated-quickly-your-guide-to-toronto-and-buffalos-crazy-nhl-preseason-brawl

LOL!! He's just awesome. 

 

[princedpw]

It blows my mind that people here would suggest that a player like Devane trying to make a career under a coach like Carlyle, who really likes tough hockey, should turn down an offer to fight because he is tougher than challenger???  WTF are you guys thinking??  The kid would never see the ice again under this coach.  He did exactly what he should have done in this situation.

Or, you know, that just highlights the larger issue many of us have with Randy Carlyle as the coach of this team. What happened tonight with Devane and everything his decision ended up leading to is really just a symptom of Carlyle's poor philosophy when it comes to putting together an NHL roster.

+1000

 

[Rebel_1812]

Grabovski on Kessel: "How do you say in English? Like a musketeer. Swish! Swish! Swish!"

At least he didn't bite him.

 

[Redleaf]

All right, so here's a question for someone.....busta?

Considering that it looks as though Clarkson is still eligible to play in the remaining preseason games, and the fact that his 10 game suspension does not affect the cap in any way because it is a suspension and not an injury, what if he were to be injured in one of the remaining preseason games? Would that provide any cap relief while he serves his suspension?

No. Suspension over rules injury. On top of that, the cap relief would only begin to kick in after 10 games or 24 days, unless it was a situation where it was clear Clarkson would miss at least that much time. Nevertheless, that's a moot point. He counts against the cap for those 10 games, no matter what happens to him for the rest of the pre-season.

Good to know. Thanks.

 

[Champ Kind]

It blows my mind that people here would suggest that a player like Devane trying to make a career under a coach like Carlyle, who really likes tough hockey, should turn down an offer to fight because he is tougher than challenger???  WTF are you guys thinking??  The kid would never see the ice again under this coach.  He did exactly what he should have done in this situation.

Or, you know, that just highlights the larger issue many of us have with Randy Carlyle as the coach of this team. What happened tonight with Devane and everything his decision ended up leading to is really just a symptom of Carlyle's poor philosophy when it comes to putting together an NHL roster.

+1000

Randy Carlyle's coaching record:

Games: 582
Wins: 305
Winning Percentage: .583

I suppose you can say you don't agree with his approach, or that you believe emphasizing toughness over skill wrong, but saying he has a "poor philisophy" undermines the success he's had coaching in the NHL.

 

[hockeyfan1]

The truth is the Sabres were angry about six foot five Devane having made a bloody mess of his smaller opponent, six foot Corey Tropp.

After this, it seemed that revenge was going to to be in air.  Kessel claims Scott told him he'd "jump him" as they were lining up for the face-off, and then all hell breaks lose...

Don't blame Kessel for his stick-swinging swipes.  It was instinctively a reaction on the part of a player who is not normally a fighter and is suddenly jumped and engaged by an opponent much bigger and meaner than him, under the circumstances.

What I find fault is with Clarkson having come off the bench.  No matter what the situation, Clarkson should have remained off the ice.  The Leafs had plenty of people to take care of the their opponents.  Heck, Bernier's decking Miller was the highlight of the night!  Ouch!

Kessel on Scott:
"It was pretty stupid, right? He said he was going to jump me," Kessel said.
"What are you going to do? He's a big boy so if he's coming after me, what are you going to do?"

Sabres coach Rolston on Devane:
"That guy's a big guy, six foot five," said Sabres head coach Ron Rolston. "And (Tropp's) a smaller guy but certainly a battler. So guys weren't happy about it."

Carlyle's response to Rolsron's remarks:
"(Tropp) was the guy who instigated the fight," said Leafs coach Randy Carlyle.
"Obviously maybe they felt that was the problem was that there was a bigger man fighting a smaller guy."

On Clarkson leaving the bench.
"We're not proud or happy that went on, that's for sure," said Carlyle.
"I think Dave Clarkson made a mistake and now we'll pay for it."

On his decision (last line change) in sending out the Kessel line:
Carlyle...also said that he sent out Kessel's line in the hopes of defusing the situation after the fight between Devane and Tropp.

Bernier on fighting Miller:
"I just asked him if I wanted to go and obviously I don't think he seemed that he actually wanted to go but that's the way it goes," said Bernier. "It's a hockey game but you get hyper in energy and I wanted to defend my teammates."

Source:  THN

 

[Bender]

I agree that the reaction from Scott and the Sabres was excessive. I'm just saying it was something that really could have been pretty easily avoided. Carlyle shares a good chunk of the blame here, too. I know he says he wanted to diffuse the situation, but, seeing that Rolston sent Scott out, he could have very easily sent out guys like JvR and Colborne along with Ashton (who he did put out) and accomplished the same thing, while having some bigger bodies out there, as well.

It's not that it's excessive so much as it is misplaced. Whatever one might want to say about the "code" it's never been along the lines of "You take a run at Gretzky, we take a run at Lemieux" but, rather, "You take a run at Gretzky, someone takes a run at you". Now, that's its own kind of stupid and we saw the ridiculous consequences of it with the Moore/Bertuzzi thing but there's, at the very least, something...I don't want to say noble but justifiable there. So if Scott had gone after Devane, sure. But going after Kessel isn't a natural result of what Devane did and he shouldn't be held accountable for it. He might have been the catalyst but he wasn't the cause. What Devane did was wrong, but it was a speeding ticket. What Clarkson did was wrong but ultimately I think it shows that no rule should have automatic penalties as situations differ. Scott(and maybe Rolston) are the villains here. Nothing justifies what they did, that's the nonsense that needs to leave the game and idiots like that will always invent justifications for their own existence.

And while I agree with you in general re: Carlyle I don't know that I'd feel much better about it if Scott went after JVR and the same thing resulted.

And the irony in all of this will be that Devane, Scott and most likely Rolston will get zero punishment, while Clarkson will get 10 and Kessel may get a game or two. What message is the league trying to send again?

If this had been Orr or Mclaren going after Crosby this would be a bigger story.

Also Busta, if bigger guys had turned down every small combatant in the history of the NHL then there would have been a good few careers that never happened (Domi, Tucker to name just a couple leafs). If you go at a guy (I mean really go at a guy) then you should be open to the possibility that you'll get clocked. Ever wonder why Phaneuf hasn't dropped a glove and thrown a punch at Chara?

The kid made a mistake and will have to learn from it. He made his own foolish decision and suffered the consequences (he's fought enough in career so far to have known better). As Nik said, the "code" thing to do, would've been to let Scott sort out Devane. What they did was bush league and has no place in the game.

Remember when McCabe got thrown around by Chara?