Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[MetalRaven]

Gotcha. (kinda like the Eakins thing) Sorry. But, ignoring that little mistake, id still like your opinion on whether we should keep Carlyle or not. If anyone has a well thought out argument as to why we should keep him I assume it would be you.

I've said before that I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other as, just in general, I very much question the overall impact a coach has on his team's record, good or bad. I think the problems with this team are so much deeper than coaching that fretting about who the coach is right now is along the lines of looking to hire someone to Captain a boat before you decide on whether that boat is going to be the QE2 or the Kon-Tiki.

But on a personal level, as someone who genuinely enjoys interesting discussions surrounding the team, I'd be fine with firing him and replacing him with someone who does everything by whatever book people are using as the standard just to change the subject.

Heh. Fair enough. Thanks for indulging me, I agree for the most part that it wont have a major impact, but I do see him as part of the problem and doubt that will change for the better anytime soon.

 

[Deebo]

I didn't think Eakins was under contract with MLSE when he joined the Oilers.

The Oilers still suck and the Marlies are doing fine though.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I didn't think Eakins was under contract with MLSE when he joined the Oilers.

He had 2 years left on his deal, but there was a clause that said he could take a NHL head coaching job if an offer was out there.

 

[bustaheims]

I didn't think Eakins was under contract with MLSE when he joined the Oilers.

The Oilers still suck and the Marlies are doing fine though.

I think he still had a couple years on his contract, but the Leafs had agreed not to stand in his way if there was an NHL head coaching position available to him. I don't think he's a huge loss, though.

 

[Kin]

The Oilers still suck and the Marlies are doing fine though.

The Peter principle seems to have been in full effect there.

I was referring more to Nieuwendyk, though.

 

[L K]

Yeah, that was in reference to Blashill and the contrast between the Red Wings and the way the Leafs have dealt with similar situations.

Now to be fair, it's a lot easier to stay par for the course when you make the playoffs every year.  I think a comparison for the Leafs would be what happened when Quinn got pushed out by Richard Peddie.  The Leafs just missed the playoffs but were one of the teams that got screwed by the cap coming into play.  And then JFJ came in and mucked things up.  That all led to Fletcher's delirious hissy fit and kicking Sundin out of town and a calling a guy who worked his tail off for the organization a guy who fostered a "country club" atmosphere.

You don't see Detroit pulling that kind of garbage with Yzerman at the tail end of his career. 

To me, if anything lately it is the front office that looks like a country club.  A bunch of guys who don't seem to grasp how to build a team in the new era of a cap-system league.  The Leafs have been up against the cap every year, they have run into issues with violations/overages several times.  You have management opening dismissing tools to help assess players, and to go along with that, you really have an organization that isn't drafting well and doesn't really have much success with free agent signings.  The Leafs have a bloated front office that is inefficient.  It's not a huge problem because the Leafs should be taking advantage of that financial advantage, but part of using that advantage means you need to cover ALL of your bases and that isn't happening.

The Leafs haven't had one of their great players retire with the team since the Cup winning days.  That makes me kind of sad.  Sittler, Salming, Keon (although at this point I think Keon's a jerk moreso than someone who is still hard-done by), Sundin, all shipped out in the later stages of their careers.  I'm not going to pretend that player loyalty does much for your franchise, and I can certainly understand trading a guy to get some assets if you are rebuilding, but I think having some of those guys retire, or at least be around at the tail end to be that veteran mentor presence to the young kids in the lockerroom is part of building a winning philosophy.  That's my personal take on it anyway.  No stats to back it up.  Just something I have never liked about how the Leafs have operated coming out of the 60s.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I don't remember Fletcher saying Sundin was someone who fostered a country club atmosphere.

 

[L K]

I don't remember Fletcher saying Sundin was someone who fostered a country club atmosphere.

He was part of Fletcher's Muskoka-5.  That was inherently calling the dressing room a country club and he was ranting about how the 5 guys with NTCs wouldn't waive.  He had that conniption fit at the deadline over it, and I recall him having a minor one when Sundin came out and said he wasn't going to waive his NTC.  I know the connotation wasn't necessarily directed at Sundin's work ethic, but it was a slam that was considerably unnecessary and raised that connotation.

 

[bustaheims]

Just a small correction - Quinn was pushed out and replaced as GM by JFJ before the cap and before the Leafs missed the playoffs with him in the organization.

 

[Kin]

Now to be fair, it's a lot easier to stay par for the course when you make the playoffs every year.

I guess. But I'd argue that organizational stability plays a role there and that's where the Leafs should be trying to emulate the Red Wings, not by trying to build around 6th round picks.

The Leafs haven't had one of their great players retire with the team since the Cup winning days.  That makes me kind of sad.  Sittler, Salming, Keon (although at this point I think Keon's a jerk moreso than someone who is still hard-done by), Sundin, all shipped out in the later stages of their careers.

I'm going to leave how wrong you are about Dave Keon alone for a second and just say that I think what you're referring to is pretty common. I don't think any great Oilers retired with them. Who was the last great Hab to retire with them? Yzerman and Lidstrom were pretty unusual in that respect.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I don't remember Fletcher saying Sundin was someone who fostered a country club atmosphere.

He was part of Fletcher's Muskoka-5.  That was inherently calling the dressing room a country club and he was ranting about how the 5 guys with NTCs wouldn't waive.  He had that conniption fit at the deadline over it, and I recall him having a minor one when Sundin came out and said he wasn't going to waive his NTC.  I know the connotation wasn't necessarily directed at Sundin's work ethic, but it was a slam that was considerably unnecessary and raised that connotation.

Wasn't that stuff like Muskoka-5 the media?  I don't recall Fletcher getting upset publicly and can't find reference to it on google.  He seemed pretty conciliatory towards Sundin.

Sorry to stray far off topic...

 

[bustaheims]

Wasn't that stuff like Muskoka-5 the media?  I don't recall Fletcher getting upset publicly and can't find reference to it on google.  He seemed pretty conciliatory towards Sundin.

Sorry to stray far off topic...

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the whole "Muskoka 5" thing was largely generated by the media. While Fletcher was noticeably upset that a number of the players he tried to trade wouldn't waive their NTCs, I'm pretty sure he never used that name in relation to them, nor did he really chastise them in the media for not accepting trades.

 

[Rebel_1812]

I don't remember Fletcher saying Sundin was someone who fostered a country club atmosphere.

He was part of Fletcher's Muskoka-5.  That was inherently calling the dressing room a country club and he was ranting about how the 5 guys with NTCs wouldn't waive.  He had that conniption fit at the deadline over it, and I recall him having a minor one when Sundin came out and said he wasn't going to waive his NTC.  I know the connotation wasn't necessarily directed at Sundin's work ethic, but it was a slam that was considerably unnecessary and raised that connotation.

But think of the team we could have had if they all agreed to be traded and the team got all the draft picks, players and prospects.

 

[Kin]

But think of the team we could have had if they all agreed to be traded and the team got all the draft picks, players and prospects.

Considering Fletcher is the guy who traded Alex Steen for Lee Stempniak and traded three picks so they could move up to draft Luke Schenn then I wouldn't be too sure that it would have made a huge difference.

 

[ZBBM]

Let's get this thread back on topic.

I demand that Carlyle be fired? immediately, unconditionally, and without apology. #shannywhereareyou

 

[bustaheims]

Considering Fletcher is the guy who traded Alex Steen for Lee Stempniak and traded three picks so they could move up to draft Luke Schenn then I wouldn't be too sure that it would have made a huge difference.

Also, looking at the 2008 draft, considering the returns would have likely been picks in the back half of the 1st round, I'm not sure the Leafs really missed out on all that much - especially looking at the 2 picks that were most strongly rumoured to have been heading to the Leafs (San Jose's and Philly's). Maybe they take Eberle with the Flyers' pick and maybe they take Carlson with the Sharks', but, there's really not much to be had there that's better than what the Leafs have now. Maybe they could have used those picks to trade up a little higher and get Pietrangelo, but, I have my doubts about that.

 

[Boston Leaf]

Let's get this thread back on topic.

I demand that Carlyle be fired? immediately, unconditionally, and without apology. #shannywhereareyou

at this point I don't see it happening.

 

[Redleaf]

Let's get this thread back on topic.

I demand that Carlyle be fired? immediately, unconditionally, and without apology. #shannywhereareyou

Busta says it's going to happen between playoff rounds, which is tomorrow. Right Busta? 

 

[Newfoundlandleaf]

I think what is abundantly obvious...and crippling...is that "Blue and White disease" is obviously alive and well..the players did not tune Randy out because he was a bad coach..they tuned him out because of their unmitigated sense of entitlement as leaf players...they refused to even try to play a cogent, needed and relatively simple system that Randy put in place...the fact that we have had several top of the line coaches in the past few years clearly shows its the leaf players, not the coach...look at Colorado...New Jersey...particularly New Jersey...play the organizations way, or you are out...coaches in Leaf land have to tip toe around players...I dunno if Shanahan can fix that.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think what is abundantly obvious...and crippling...is that "Blue and White disease" is obviously alive and well..the players did not tune Randy out because he was a bad coach..they tuned him out because of their unmitigated sense of entitlement as leaf players...they refused to even try to play a cogent, needed and relatively simple system that Randy put in place...the fact that we have had several top of the line coaches in the past few years clearly shows its the leaf players, not the coach...look at Colorado...New Jersey...particularly New Jersey...play the organizations way, or you are out...coaches in Leaf land have to tip toe around players...I dunno if Shanahan can fix that.

Did Anaheim players have quack quack disease when they couldn't perform well under Carlyle and he was fired?  Because that same team is now in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Seems to me that would be a very difficult thing to determine/analyze (especially for us as fans) for 20 or so different players compared to something like systems being the culprit.