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SCF: Pittsburgh Penguins vs. San Jose Sharks

Nik the Trik said:
I don't think Bettman's that bad of a Commissioner but booing him is still probably my favourite tradition.
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Absolutely loved that too!

Credit to so many Sharks fans for sticking around to help them celebrate too.
 
So here's sort of a side question about Crosby. He's got 2 cups now, 2 Hart's(and a third Lindsay), a Richard, a Conn Smythe(if questionable), the two gold medals...

But here's the question. If he hadn't got injured, would he have 5 Harts? He almost certainly would have won in 2012-2013 if he'd played a few more games. When he got hurt in 2010-2011 he was on pace for a 64 goal, 132 point season which seems like a safe bet for a Hart trophy. Then there's 07-08 where he was on pace for 111 points and 11-12 where he scored 37 points in 22 games.

So even assuming he doesn't win this year(he'd get my vote but that seems unlikely) if he hadn't suffered the concussions would we be talking about him as one of the 4 or 5 best players ever right now?
 
The Smythe is happily in the right hands.  :)

Good on the Pens.  Way to bring the Cup back to where it belongs.  IN THE EAST!
 
Nik the Trik said:
I really don't get the "Hardest Trophy in Sports to win" stuff. Who could know?
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I'm sure they're not thinking of it this way, but I could see it in terms of luck factor.  Hockey is probably the sport where results are most susceptible to luck/randomness, so I could see an argument being you're more likely to be on a great team and still lose in hockey than in other sports.  Plus I would also accept it being the only "physical" sport which requires Best of 7 series' to determine the winner (I'm thinking similar sports like football are a 1 and done situation).  So it's arguably the most physically punishing to win and 'harder' in that sense.
 
Nik the Trik said:
So here's sort of a side question about Crosby. He's got 2 cups now, 2 Hart's(and a third Lindsay), a Richard, a Conn Smythe(if questionable), the two gold medals...

But here's the question. If he hadn't got injured, would he have 5 Harts? He almost certainly would have won in 2012-2013 if he'd played a few more games. When he got hurt in 2010-2011 he was on pace for a 64 goal, 132 point season which seems like a safe bet for a Hart trophy. Then there's 07-08 where he was on pace for 111 points and 11-12 where he scored 37 points in 22 games.

So even assuming he doesn't win this year(he'd get my vote but that seems unlikely) if he hadn't suffered the concussions would we be talking about him as one of the 4 or 5 best players ever right now?
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Gretzky, Crosby, McDavid.

Lemieux, Toews, Matthews.

:)
 
Nik the Trik said:
So even assuming he doesn't win this year(he'd get my vote but that seems unlikely) if he hadn't suffered the concussions would we be talking about him as one of the 4 or 5 best players ever right now?
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I'm just curious, who of the pretty much unanimously considered top four of all-time would you put Crosby ahead of? 

I think him and Jagr both have strong cases to be considered in the tier just outside of that group.

EDIT -- As an add on, if we're going with the hadn't suffered any concussions narrative, I think it'd be Lindros who would have a better chance to be considered one of the top five players of all time.
 
Potvin29 said:
Nik the Trik said:
I'm sure they're not thinking of it this way, but I could see it in terms of luck factor.  Hockey is probably the sport where results are most susceptible to luck/randomness, so I could see an argument being you're more likely to be on a great team and still lose in hockey than in other sports.  Plus I would also accept it being the only "physical" sport which requires Best of 7 series' to determine the winner (I'm thinking similar sports like football are a 1 and done situation).  So it's arguably the most physically punishing to win and 'harder' in that sense.
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Basketball's a pretty physical sport, even without Draymond Green whacking dudes in the danglers every night. And you figure one and dones add so much to the luck factor involved that those are probably tougher.

That said I just thought it was a weird thing to say.
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Peter D. said:
I'm just curious, who of the pretty much unanimously considered top four of all-time would you put Crosby ahead of? 
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Nobody for certain, especially without those 4 or 5 Harts.
 
The most shocking thing I took away from yesterday's post-game celebration on the ice -- that that kid wasn't Jim Rutherford's grandson, but rather his son.  :o
 
Peter D. said:
Nik the Trik said:
So even assuming he doesn't win this year(he'd get my vote but that seems unlikely) if he hadn't suffered the concussions would we be talking about him as one of the 4 or 5 best players ever right now?
Click to expand...

I'm just curious, who of the pretty much unanimously considered top four of all-time would you put Crosby ahead of? 

I think him and Jagr both have strong cases to be considered in the tier just outside of that group.

EDIT -- As an add on, if we're going with the hadn't suffered any concussions narrative, I think it'd be Lindros who would have a better chance to be considered one of the top five players of all time.
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Unanimous Top 4 of All Time are Gretzky, Orr, Howe, and Lemieux I'd assume.

Next up?  That's a tough one, especially when recency bias comes into play.  The Rocket probably still sits ahead of Jagr and there are a few other players who you'd argue are still ahead of Jagr as well.  (Beliveau, Bossy, Coffey, Roy, Messier?)

As for Crosby, it's always tough to peg where a player sits on an all-time list when they still have so many potential years left in their career.  He will probably end up among that "next" list above.
 
Peter D. said:
EDIT -- As an add on, if we're going with the hadn't suffered any concussions narrative, I think it'd be Lindros who would have a better chance to be considered one of the top five players of all time.
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Well, to the extent that it matters I was just talking about all injuries. I don't think Crosby missed time in 2012-2013 because of a concussion.

As for him vs. Lindros in that regard Lindros was always facing an uphill battle for individual recognition because he was a contemporary of Lemieux and Jagr. So even if healthy he'd have been in tough to put together the kind of Awards cabinet that Sid might have. Just as an example, and I realize this isn't the be all and end all, but Crosby has led the NHL in points per game five separate times. Lindros only did it once.
 
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A lot of Crosby's magic doesn't show up on the box stats.
 
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