Steve Stamkos?

[bustaheims]

I don't think anyone is suggesting building anything of significance around unknowns.

Yeah. I think that's the disconnect here. Those of us who are arguing against Stamkos aren't saying the Leafs should just build around Matthew/Marner/Nylander/etc. We're saying that the team needs to wait until they have an idea of what they actually have in them before building around them, rather than building around projections/best case scenarios/theoretical models/etc of what they might become.

 

[TBLeafer]

I don't think anyone is suggesting building anything of significance around unknowns.

Yeah. I think that's the disconnect here. Those of us who are arguing against Stamkos aren't saying the Leafs should just build around Matthew/Marner/Nylander/etc. We're saying that the team needs to wait until they have an idea of what they actually have in them before building around them, rather than building around projections/best case scenarios/theoretical models/etc of what they might become.

Is that before or after you declare that a 1C is no longer an area of need but D and G is?

 

[bustaheims]

Is that before or after you declare that a 1C is no longer an area of need but D and G is?

Fair enough. I don't think Matthews is likely to not be a 1C. That doesn't mean I feel he'll be an elite 1C or good enough to be part of a championship core, but the potential is there. That can't be said of the options in net or the options to ride alongside Rielly on the top pairing.

 

[Kin]

Fair enough. I don't think Matthews is likely to not be a 1C. That doesn't mean I feel he'll be an elite 1C or good enough to be part of a championship core, but the potential is there. That can't be said of the options in net or the options to ride alongside Rielly on the top pairing.

At the very least if the Leafs don't have an internal #1 C option between Kadri/Nylander/Matthews then they're probably in a ton of trouble anyway and the issue is sort of moot.

I don't think it's a binary need/not a need situation but right now it's undeniable the team is better situated down the middle than anywhere else. That's a fair statement without being definitive about any particular outcome.

 

[TBLeafer]

Is that before or after you declare that a 1C is no longer an area of need but D and G is?

Fair enough. I don't think Matthews is likely to not be a 1C. That doesn't mean I feel he'll be an elite 1C or good enough to be part of a championship core, but the potential is there. That can't be said of the options in net or the options to ride alongside Rielly on the top pairing.

Right. So back to when last season ended and we Leafs fans declared that we need a bit of EVERYTHING LOL.

Well Stamkos is one proven piece of everything.

 

[bustaheims]

Right. So back to when last season ended and we Leafs fans declared that we need a bit of EVERYTHING LOL.

Well Stamkos is one proven piece of everything.

Stamkos is a great goal scorer, but, the other aspects of his game are much less compelling - which is part of why TBay moved him to the wing.

And, yes, the Leafs need a little of everything. They don't need it for next season though. And they also need it to be as cap efficient as possible, and they also need to know what they have in-house before they start committing to major pieces from outside, so that, when they bring in those pieces, they're the right pieces that fill the right needs. And, honestly, even if Matthews doesn't work out, I'm not convinced Stamkos is one of those pieces.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I think that we're doing Matthews an injustice by throwing around words like "unknown" or "unproven" around him. He's the (mostly) undisputed 1st overall pick in a draft that looks pretty decent. He's a centre with legitimate franchise/cornerstone potential. I know that he's not Connor McDavid, but do you think that the Oilers were running around trying to fix their centre position after he was picked just because he hadn't played a game yet? Of course not.  I get that we've never had a prospect of this calibre before so it might be difficult to understand. But it wouldn't be a mistake at all for the Leafs to plan the growth and rise of this franchise with him as their main piece.

So I really can't stress this enough: our centre ice position, regardless of the age of two of the three projected main pieces, is in no way, shape, or form a weakness or organizational need.

 

[TBLeafer]

Right. So back to when last season ended and we Leafs fans declared that we need a bit of EVERYTHING LOL.

Well Stamkos is one proven piece of everything.

Stamkos is a great goal scorer, but, the other aspects of his game are much less compelling - which is part of why TBay moved him to the wing.

And, yes, the Leafs need a little of everything. They don't need it for next season though. And they also need it to be as cap efficient as possible, and they also need to know what they have in-house before they start committing to major pieces from outside, so that, when they bring in those pieces, they're the right pieces that fill the right needs. And, honestly, even if Matthews doesn't work out, I'm not convinced Stamkos is one of those pieces.

You don't have to be convinced.  There are only 2 players signed on the Leafs currently long term.  2.  Two pieces that they had determined to be core worthy going forward and they are forming their new core.

Stamkos is unquestionably a core worthy member on any team.  He would represent core member #3 on the Leafs.

And look at all that future cap beyond next season we'll have to form the team around them!

The Leafs are going to be major players this summer to find a major piece to fit into their core this summer.  Its gonna happen.  They've set up the cap to prepare for it, by clearing the former big contracts and faulty core.

If not Stamkos, its a player like Lucic, Okposo, Reimer, Yandle, Staal that they will use available cap on to improve their team.  Because they plan to undoubtedly improve their team this summer via UFA.

It might as well be Stamkos compared to the alternatives.

 

[bustaheims]

So I really can't stress this enough: our centre ice position, regardless of the age of two of the three projected main pieces, is in no way, shape, or form a weakness or organizational need.

Yeah. It's down near the bottom of the list in terms of areas where the Leafs need to seek out improvements. Just ahead of "head coach" and "forward thinking management."

 

[TBLeafer]

I think that we're doing Matthews an injustice by throwing around words like "unknown" or "unproven" around him. He's the (mostly) undisputed 1st overall pick in a draft that looks pretty decent. He's a centre with legitimate franchise/cornerstone potential. I know that he's not Connor McDavid, but do you think that the Oilers were running around trying to fix their centre position after he was picked just because he hadn't played a game yet? Of course not.  I get that we've never had a prospect of this calibre before so it might be difficult to understand. But it wouldn't be a mistake at all for the Leafs to plan the growth and rise of this franchise with him as their main piece.

So I really can't stress this enough: our centre ice position, regardless of the age of two of the three projected main pieces, is in no way, shape, or form a weakness or organizational need.

I completely agree "unproven" is a bit of an injustice where Matthews is concerned.

I just wouldn't mind in the slightest as a year over year improvement of the team, having one position where we lacked depth in, a VERY important position I might add, to being UBER deep in it the following season.  So much so that a top flight young center has to move to the wing or pushed down to the bottom six.

What a WONDERFUL problem to have on the Leafs, finally.

I've never seen it before in my lifetime on this team.

 

[Zee]

I think that we're doing Matthews an injustice by throwing around words like "unknown" or "unproven" around him. He's the (mostly) undisputed 1st overall pick in a draft that looks pretty decent. He's a centre with legitimate franchise/cornerstone potential. I know that he's not Connor McDavid, but do you think that the Oilers were running around trying to fix their centre position after he was picked just because he hadn't played a game yet? Of course not.  I get that we've never had a prospect of this calibre before so it might be difficult to understand. But it wouldn't be a mistake at all for the Leafs to plan the growth and rise of this franchise with him as their main piece.

So I really can't stress this enough: our centre ice position, regardless of the age of two of the three projected main pieces, is in no way, shape, or form a weakness or organizational need.

I completely agree "unproven" is a bit of an injustice where Matthews is concerned.

I just wouldn't mind in the slightest as a year over year improvement of the team, having one position where we lacked depth in, a VERY important position I might add, to being UBER deep in it the following season.  So much so that a top flight young center has to move to the wing or pushed down to the bottom six.

What a WONDERFUL problem to have on the Leafs, finally.

I've never seen it before in my lifetime on this team.

It's nice to actually have faith in the management group for once.  First time in my life where i'm confident that the president, GM and scouts all know what they're doing for the best of the team. 

 

[TBLeafer]

I think that we're doing Matthews an injustice by throwing around words like "unknown" or "unproven" around him. He's the (mostly) undisputed 1st overall pick in a draft that looks pretty decent. He's a centre with legitimate franchise/cornerstone potential. I know that he's not Connor McDavid, but do you think that the Oilers were running around trying to fix their centre position after he was picked just because he hadn't played a game yet? Of course not.  I get that we've never had a prospect of this calibre before so it might be difficult to understand. But it wouldn't be a mistake at all for the Leafs to plan the growth and rise of this franchise with him as their main piece.

So I really can't stress this enough: our centre ice position, regardless of the age of two of the three projected main pieces, is in no way, shape, or form a weakness or organizational need.

I completely agree "unproven" is a bit of an injustice where Matthews is concerned.

I just wouldn't mind in the slightest as a year over year improvement of the team, having one position where we lacked depth in, a VERY important position I might add, to being UBER deep in it the following season.  So much so that a top flight young center has to move to the wing or pushed down to the bottom six.

What a WONDERFUL problem to have on the Leafs, finally.

I've never seen it before in my lifetime on this team.

It's nice to actually have faith in the management group for once.  First time in my life where i'm confident that the president, GM and scouts all know what they're doing for the best of the team.

Absolutely.  For the fist time as a Leafs fan, I am in awe of the management team assembled.

Praise Lieweke for realizing he made a terrible mistake in trusting Nonis with the future of the team!

Truth be told, even if we don't manage to land Stammer, I shrug my shoulders, make a little sad face, understand that the rebuild is gonna take a little longer than I am personally hoping for and continue having complete faith in the Shanaplan.

It would be wise for those wishing we don't sign him to feel the same way if we do.

 

[Zee]

I think that we're doing Matthews an injustice by throwing around words like "unknown" or "unproven" around him. He's the (mostly) undisputed 1st overall pick in a draft that looks pretty decent. He's a centre with legitimate franchise/cornerstone potential. I know that he's not Connor McDavid, but do you think that the Oilers were running around trying to fix their centre position after he was picked just because he hadn't played a game yet? Of course not.  I get that we've never had a prospect of this calibre before so it might be difficult to understand. But it wouldn't be a mistake at all for the Leafs to plan the growth and rise of this franchise with him as their main piece.

So I really can't stress this enough: our centre ice position, regardless of the age of two of the three projected main pieces, is in no way, shape, or form a weakness or organizational need.

I completely agree "unproven" is a bit of an injustice where Matthews is concerned.

I just wouldn't mind in the slightest as a year over year improvement of the team, having one position where we lacked depth in, a VERY important position I might add, to being UBER deep in it the following season.  So much so that a top flight young center has to move to the wing or pushed down to the bottom six.

What a WONDERFUL problem to have on the Leafs, finally.

I've never seen it before in my lifetime on this team.

It's nice to actually have faith in the management group for once.  First time in my life where i'm confident that the president, GM and scouts all know what they're doing for the best of the team.

Absolutely.  For the fist time as a Leafs fan, I am in awe of the management team assembled.

Praise Lieweke for realizing he made a terrible mistake in trusting Nonis with the future of the team!

Truth be told, even if we don't manage to land Stammer, I shrug my shoulders, make a little sad face, understand that the rebuild is gonna take a little longer than I am personally hoping for and continue having complete faith in the Shanaplan.

It would be wise for those wishing we don't sign him to feel the same way if we do.

Whatever happened to Leiweke?  I remember he was supposed to step down but I don't recall ever hearing the official announcement about it.  Love him or hate him, he's the guy that brought Shanhan in and put all this into motion.  If that's his one legacy with the Leafs I'll take it.

Edit
I guess this article answers my question:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/tim-leiweke-the-travelling-salesman-who-left-his-mark-on-toronto/article27876606/

 

[Bill_Berg]

Right. So back to when last season ended and we Leafs fans declared that we need a bit of EVERYTHING LOL.

Well Stamkos is one proven piece of everything.

Stamkos is a great goal scorer, but, the other aspects of his game are much less compelling - which is part of why TBay moved him to the wing.

And, yes, the Leafs need a little of everything. They don't need it for next season though. And they also need it to be as cap efficient as possible, and they also need to know what they have in-house before they start committing to major pieces from outside, so that, when they bring in those pieces, they're the right pieces that fill the right needs. And, honestly, even if Matthews doesn't work out, I'm not convinced Stamkos is one of those pieces.

You don't have to be convinced.  There are only 2 players signed on the Leafs currently long term.  2.  Two pieces that they had determined to be core worthy going forward and they are forming their new core.

Stamkos is unquestionably a core worthy member on any team.  He would represent core member #3 on the Leafs.

And look at all that future cap beyond next season we'll have to form the team around them!

The Leafs are going to be major players this summer to find a major piece to fit into their core this summer.  Its gonna happen.  They've set up the cap to prepare for it, by clearing the former big contracts and faulty core.

If not Stamkos, its a player like Lucic, Okposo, Reimer, Yandle, Staal that they will use available cap on to improve their team.  Because they plan to undoubtedly improve their team this summer via UFA.

It might as well be Stamkos compared to the alternatives.

I don't think anyone is arguing that if the Leafs are going to go for it now in the short term, Stamkos is a key signing. But I don't think they are going to major players this summer at all, certainly not in the FA market. If I'm wrong and they do, they will try for Stamkos for sure, but what most people against the Stamkos signing are advocating is that it's not time to beef the team up with FAs, but to stay the course and set up a team with short term contacts that are tradeable while they assess what they have and determing the long term needs.

What you don't want is 4 years from now to have 3 first line centers, the oldest one being the one you're locked into, all taking up a huge chunk of the salary cap while having huge gaps on the back end and in goal.

 

[Redleaf]

I think that we're doing Matthews an injustice by throwing around words like "unknown" or "unproven" around him. He's the (mostly) undisputed 1st overall pick in a draft that looks pretty decent. He's a centre with legitimate franchise/cornerstone potential. I know that he's not Connor McDavid, but do you think that the Oilers were running around trying to fix their centre position after he was picked just because he hadn't played a game yet? Of course not.  I get that we've never had a prospect of this calibre before so it might be difficult to understand. But it wouldn't be a mistake at all for the Leafs to plan the growth and rise of this franchise with him as their main piece.

So I really can't stress this enough: our centre ice position, regardless of the age of two of the three projected main pieces, is in no way, shape, or form a weakness or organizational need.

I completely agree "unproven" is a bit of an injustice where Matthews is concerned.

I just wouldn't mind in the slightest as a year over year improvement of the team, having one position where we lacked depth in, a VERY important position I might add, to being UBER deep in it the following season.  So much so that a top flight young center has to move to the wing or pushed down to the bottom six.

What a WONDERFUL problem to have on the Leafs, finally.

I've never seen it before in my lifetime on this team.

I know its been mentioned in this thread already, but why isn't this a main arguing point for bringing in Stamkos...

It allows the Leafs to trade a young and very talented player or prospect like a Nylander, Kadri, Marner, in order to shore up weaknesses at other positions on this team. That in itself is a fantastic reason to sign Stamkos for nothing but cap space and dollars. Suddenly your not only strong at center, but you have considerable options to improve your defense as well.

 

[TBLeafer]

I think that we're doing Matthews an injustice by throwing around words like "unknown" or "unproven" around him. He's the (mostly) undisputed 1st overall pick in a draft that looks pretty decent. He's a centre with legitimate franchise/cornerstone potential. I know that he's not Connor McDavid, but do you think that the Oilers were running around trying to fix their centre position after he was picked just because he hadn't played a game yet? Of course not.  I get that we've never had a prospect of this calibre before so it might be difficult to understand. But it wouldn't be a mistake at all for the Leafs to plan the growth and rise of this franchise with him as their main piece.

So I really can't stress this enough: our centre ice position, regardless of the age of two of the three projected main pieces, is in no way, shape, or form a weakness or organizational need.

I completely agree "unproven" is a bit of an injustice where Matthews is concerned.

I just wouldn't mind in the slightest as a year over year improvement of the team, having one position where we lacked depth in, a VERY important position I might add, to being UBER deep in it the following season.  So much so that a top flight young center has to move to the wing or pushed down to the bottom six.

What a WONDERFUL problem to have on the Leafs, finally.

I've never seen it before in my lifetime on this team.

It's nice to actually have faith in the management group for once.  First time in my life where i'm confident that the president, GM and scouts all know what they're doing for the best of the team.

Absolutely.  For the fist time as a Leafs fan, I am in awe of the management team assembled.

Praise Lieweke for realizing he made a terrible mistake in trusting Nonis with the future of the team!

Truth be told, even if we don't manage to land Stammer, I shrug my shoulders, make a little sad face, understand that the rebuild is gonna take a little longer than I am personally hoping for and continue having complete faith in the Shanaplan.

It would be wise for those wishing we don't sign him to feel the same way if we do.

Whatever happened to Leiweke?  I remember he was supposed to step down but I don't recall ever hearing the official announcement about it.  Love him or hate him, he's the guy that brought Shanhan in and put all this into motion.  If that's his one legacy with the Leafs I'll take it.

Edit
I guess this article answers my question:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/tim-leiweke-the-travelling-salesman-who-left-his-mark-on-toronto/article27876606/

Funny, I was just about to post the same thing.

Yep.  He partnered with MSG to for Oak View Group, of which MLSE is a client, sounds like he now lives in Florida and misses Toronto surprisingly according to him.

 

[TBLeafer]

Right. So back to when last season ended and we Leafs fans declared that we need a bit of EVERYTHING LOL.

Well Stamkos is one proven piece of everything.

Stamkos is a great goal scorer, but, the other aspects of his game are much less compelling - which is part of why TBay moved him to the wing.

And, yes, the Leafs need a little of everything. They don't need it for next season though. And they also need it to be as cap efficient as possible, and they also need to know what they have in-house before they start committing to major pieces from outside, so that, when they bring in those pieces, they're the right pieces that fill the right needs. And, honestly, even if Matthews doesn't work out, I'm not convinced Stamkos is one of those pieces.

You don't have to be convinced.  There are only 2 players signed on the Leafs currently long term.  2.  Two pieces that they had determined to be core worthy going forward and they are forming their new core.

Stamkos is unquestionably a core worthy member on any team.  He would represent core member #3 on the Leafs.

And look at all that future cap beyond next season we'll have to form the team around them!

The Leafs are going to be major players this summer to find a major piece to fit into their core this summer.  Its gonna happen.  They've set up the cap to prepare for it, by clearing the former big contracts and faulty core.

If not Stamkos, its a player like Lucic, Okposo, Reimer, Yandle, Staal that they will use available cap on to improve their team.  Because they plan to undoubtedly improve their team this summer via UFA.

It might as well be Stamkos compared to the alternatives.

I don't think anyone is arguing that if the Leafs are going to go for it now in the short term, Stamkos is a key signing. But I don't think they are going to major players this summer at all, certainly not in the FA market. If I'm wrong and they do, they will try for Stamkos for sure, but what most people against the Stamkos signing are advocating is that it's not time to beef the team up with FAs, but to stay the course and set up a team with short term contacts that are tradeable while they assess what they have and determing the long term needs.

What you don't want is 4 years from now to have 3 first line centers, the oldest one being the one you're locked into, all taking up a huge chunk of the salary cap while having huge gaps on the back end and in goal.

Being a major player in UFA doesn't have to mean you are going after multiple players.  It can just mean you are going after big fish.

And Stamkos is a pretty big fish.

If they don't land him, they are probably going to use those cap dollars to upgrade on D and G instead like many here are suggesting.  Like going after Yandle and bringing back Reimer.

 

[TBLeafer]

I think that we're doing Matthews an injustice by throwing around words like "unknown" or "unproven" around him. He's the (mostly) undisputed 1st overall pick in a draft that looks pretty decent. He's a centre with legitimate franchise/cornerstone potential. I know that he's not Connor McDavid, but do you think that the Oilers were running around trying to fix their centre position after he was picked just because he hadn't played a game yet? Of course not.  I get that we've never had a prospect of this calibre before so it might be difficult to understand. But it wouldn't be a mistake at all for the Leafs to plan the growth and rise of this franchise with him as their main piece.

So I really can't stress this enough: our centre ice position, regardless of the age of two of the three projected main pieces, is in no way, shape, or form a weakness or organizational need.

I completely agree "unproven" is a bit of an injustice where Matthews is concerned.

I just wouldn't mind in the slightest as a year over year improvement of the team, having one position where we lacked depth in, a VERY important position I might add, to being UBER deep in it the following season.  So much so that a top flight young center has to move to the wing or pushed down to the bottom six.

What a WONDERFUL problem to have on the Leafs, finally.

I've never seen it before in my lifetime on this team.

I know its been mentioned in this thread already, but why isn't this a main arguing point for bringing in Stamkos...

It allows the Leafs to trade a young and very talented player or prospect like a Nylander, Kadri, Marner, in order to shore up weaknesses at other positions on this team. That in itself is a fantastic reason to sign Stamkos for nothing but cap space and dollars. Suddenly your not only strong at center, but you have considerable options to improve your defense as well.

Agreed.  Options are to improve your team are always a very good thing.

 

[Tigger]

Right. So back to when last season ended and we Leafs fans declared that we need a bit of EVERYTHING LOL.

Well Stamkos is one proven piece of everything.

Stamkos is a great goal scorer, but, the other aspects of his game are much less compelling - which is part of why TBay moved him to the wing.

And, yes, the Leafs need a little of everything. They don't need it for next season though. And they also need it to be as cap efficient as possible, and they also need to know what they have in-house before they start committing to major pieces from outside, so that, when they bring in those pieces, they're the right pieces that fill the right needs. And, honestly, even if Matthews doesn't work out, I'm not convinced Stamkos is one of those pieces.

You don't have to be convinced.  There are only 2 players signed on the Leafs currently long term.  2.  Two pieces that they had determined to be core worthy going forward and they are forming their new core.

Stamkos is unquestionably a core worthy member on any team.  He would represent core member #3 on the Leafs.

And look at all that future cap beyond next season we'll have to form the team around them!

The Leafs are going to be major players this summer to find a major piece to fit into their core this summer.  Its gonna happen.  They've set up the cap to prepare for it, by clearing the former big contracts and faulty core.

If not Stamkos, its a player like Lucic, Okposo, Reimer, Yandle, Staal that they will use available cap on to improve their team.  Because they plan to undoubtedly improve their team this summer via UFA.

It might as well be Stamkos compared to the alternatives.

I don't think anyone is arguing that if the Leafs are going to go for it now in the short term, Stamkos is a key signing. But I don't think they are going to major players this summer at all, certainly not in the FA market. If I'm wrong and they do, they will try for Stamkos for sure, but what most people against the Stamkos signing are advocating is that it's not time to beef the team up with FAs, but to stay the course and set up a team with short term contacts that are tradeable while they assess what they have and determing the long term needs.

What you don't want is 4 years from now to have 3 first line centers, the oldest one being the one you're locked into, all taking up a huge chunk of the salary cap while having huge gaps on the back end and in goal.

Yeah, none of those free agents seem appealing for the Leafs.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Yeah, none of those free agents seem appealing for the Leafs.

I'd be absolutely stunned if they offered any UFA but Stamkos a long-term deal this summer.