Tank Nation UNITE!!!

[Chris]

How many games do you actually attend? I have been to many in the past 4 years and game in and game out Kessel is racing up and down the ice, certainly the fastest skater on the ice at all the games I was at. (Yes he has deficiencies and yes the past 30 or 40 games it may seem like he is lacking in effort).

Curious as to how many games you've attended during the recent 30-40 game slide? I'm sure Phil looked a lot better over most of the past 4 years than he has during the past 40 games...no? Are you telling us that, based on attending multiple games since December, you see Phil putting in the same effort as he has in the past? If so, how does the relative effort level of his linemates compare to the past?

 

[Highlander]

To be honest, I have not watched the last 40 games, and I agree for the money these guys are getting they should be busting there arses every night. So I do not want to comment on the slide.
I will say it is a lot easier to be a crewmember on sound ship than on a sinking ship.
My problem and I go back to the start of the season when I said something to the effect of: enjoy this season, they are going nowhere, there will be some great games, many bad ones and there will be changes.  Lets face it this season was a throw away before it began, so my problem is not joining the throngs calling for everyones heads, the get rid of em all syndrome. I refuse to join the mass whom blame Phil Kessel for all what is wrong with the team.
We can point a lot of fingers, but what I say is let the new management make the changes after the playoffs, hire a decent coach, draft some great young talent and lets realize that this is a low as low as they can go or will go in the foreseeable future.
I think the consensus is that we are willing to support a team of young guys being given a chance who play there guts out every night, even if they lose more than they win, while the rebuild goes on.
When eating a chicken do you eat the bones? No you eat what is edible and you do not rebuild a team completely, you need to keep some key components. We can argue about who these players are; perhaps Kadri, Rielly, JVR, Holland,  Panik.
My argument is that Phil Kessel is still a pure sniper and they are not readily available.  He is not the antichrist in what has transpired.
Arguments could have been made that Burke should never have been tossed or was tossed prematurely. Than Nonis is an idiot etc etc.
Lets give Shannaplan, Dubois, Hunter and the new coach a chance and lets give Kessel some more rope.  At least he does provide the few thrills the Leafs have had in the past 4 years

 

[mr grieves]

Here is the thing with Kessel - short of drafting McDavid, where is this number 1 center with Skill / Size / Defensive acumen going to come from?  It is clear to me, that Kessel's center/line mates need all 3 of the above attributes.  And this centre needs to be here for the next 3 years which are an approximation of Kessel's remaining prime performance years (assuming the 30 + years are the starting to decline years of Kessel - which is of course debatable). 

Is this 1st line Centre Kadri?  Is it Nylander?  O'Reilly?  Eric Staal?  Is it Strome/Marner?  McDavid? Some one else?  I don't know. 

I'm all for keeping him, shortcomings and all, provided there is a plan to not have Bozak centering him.

For all those defending Kessel, I don't see a valid plan to say how we make full use of Kessel as the 2nd/3rd best forward, and how we acquire such asset if he is not already in the system.  I'm not an advocate of giving Kessel away for nothing/scraps/cap space - I'd much rather keep him.  That's a huge mega-step backwards - he is too good of an offsensive player to give up for garbage. 

However, if there is no plan to obtain such a centre for him, then he is best used in a hockey trade to help the rebuild.  Kessel to a "now" contender for a future bona-fide norris type defense man has been my calling card for awhile (i.e. Kessel for Jones type of scenario).

Yeah, that's where I am. I'd want to see how the draft goes before moving him, but if there's no 1C on the horizon -- someone he can play with within the next 2-3 years -- it's probably better to move him, for the sake of the player and the overall health of the prospect pool (somewhat higher picks).

In terms of high end talent, it will be a step back though. If they trade Kessel, what chance that, in 3 or 4 years, they'll have a guy in his early 20s who can do what Kessel can in his early 30s? Might have a better chance at having few more useful young players, but it's doubtful they'll have the sort of player who's top 5 or whatever it is in scoring over multiple seasons (guessing he's slid a bit on that list lately...).

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Bottom line for Phil is if he mails in another off season with the Leafs or any other team it's not going to go well for him next year either.  I think he's reached an age where his lack of conditioning has caught up with him. He can't get away with it anymore. The older he gets the worse it's going to get unless he commits to being in better shape.

There is no evidence of a "lack of conditioning".

 

[LuncheonMeat]

Bottom line for Phil is if he mails in another off season with the Leafs or any other team it's not going to go well for him next year either.  I think he's reached an age where his lack of conditioning has caught up with him. He can't get away with it anymore. The older he gets the worse it's going to get unless he commits to being in better shape.

There is no evidence of a "lack of conditioning".

Other than his flabby looking body, and the fact he's always sucking wind and pretending he's dying rather than joining the back check. 

 

[TML fan]

I love reading comments about how people want Zach Sill on the team next year because he punched Steve Ott in the face, but Phil Kessel is just a huge pile of crap because he can't single handedly win games. Phil Kessel is the problem, not the other 9 useless forwards that make up this roster. Just Phil.

As it turned out, Leafs did find someone to replace Sundin. Just not in the way that counts.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I love reading comments about how people want Zach Sill on the team next year because he punched Steve Ott in the face, but Phil Kessel is just a huge pile of crap because he can't single handedly win games. Phil Kessel is the problem, not the other 9 useless forwards that make up this roster. Just Phil.

As it turned out, Leafs did find someone to replace Sundin. Just not in the way that counts.

It's crazy.  In 05-06 Crosby had 110 points on a team that finished 2nd last in the league.  The next season they added Malkin, Staal and some other pieces and suddenly they were up to 5th in the Eastern Conference.  You wouldn't argue that Crosby failed to get it done putting up 110 points - you'd say the team wasn't good enough overall.  As you alluded to - it's not the NBA.  Even a Crosby alone can't carry a team. 

 

[Chris]

Comparing an 18 year old rookie to a 27 year old who has been in the NHL for 9 years. OK, sure.

How was Crosby's effort level that season? Despite being on a team that finished essentially last, with a bunch of older players who were largely -, Crosby finished at only -1. I don't think he was the problem with that team, and the stats suggest he did anything but quit despite the terrible season the team had. Can the same be said for Kessel? I don't think so. He certainly isn't the only problem, but he's a big part of it.

 

[pmrules]

I love reading comments about how people want Zach Sill on the team next year because he punched Steve Ott in the face, but Phil Kessel is just a huge pile of crap because he can't single handedly win games. Phil Kessel is the problem, not the other 9 useless forwards that make up this roster. Just Phil.

As it turned out, Leafs did find someone to replace Sundin. Just not in the way that counts.

It's crazy.  In 05-06 Crosby had 110 points on a team that finished 2nd last in the league.  The next season they added Malkin, Staal and some other pieces and suddenly they were up to 5th in the Eastern Conference.  You wouldn't argue that Crosby failed to get it done putting up 110 points - you'd say the team wasn't good enough overall.  As you alluded to - it's not the NBA.  Even a Crosby alone can't carry a team.

So...What is your solution?  You just keep defending him, and showing somewhat questionable stats without providing any solutions!  How do we best utilize Kessel?  How do we obtain that Malkin AND Staal type players (your example, not mine) for Kessel that are of similar age and skill that is going to lead the Leafs to being a perennial Stanley Cup contender during Kessel's remaining prime years?

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

I love reading comments about how people want Zach Sill on the team next year because he punched Steve Ott in the face, but Phil Kessel is just a huge pile of crap because he can't single handedly win games. Phil Kessel is the problem, not the other 9 useless forwards that make up this roster. Just Phil.

As it turned out, Leafs did find someone to replace Sundin. Just not in the way that counts.

It's crazy.  In 05-06 Crosby had 110 points on a team that finished 2nd last in the league.  The next season they added Malkin, Staal and some other pieces and suddenly they were up to 5th in the Eastern Conference.  You wouldn't argue that Crosby failed to get it done putting up 110 points - you'd say the team wasn't good enough overall.  As you alluded to - it's not the NBA.  Even a Crosby alone can't carry a team.

So...What is your solution?  You just keep defending him, and showing somewhat questionable stats without providing any solutions!  How do we best utilize Kessel?  How do we obtain that Malkin AND Staal type players (your example, not mine) for Kessel that are of similar age and skill that is going to lead the Leafs to being a perennial Stanley Cup contender during Kessel's remaining prime years?

i'd hazard a guess in that he's not really saying we can add a malkin or a stall ..more that it's not kessel's fault that they haven't ...much like it wasn't crosby's fault that the penguins didn't have them in his first year.  it seems the point is more this can't be pinned on kessel ..not that there isn't a problem

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I love reading comments about how people want Zach Sill on the team next year because he punched Steve Ott in the face, but Phil Kessel is just a huge pile of crap because he can't single handedly win games. Phil Kessel is the problem, not the other 9 useless forwards that make up this roster. Just Phil.

As it turned out, Leafs did find someone to replace Sundin. Just not in the way that counts.

It's crazy.  In 05-06 Crosby had 110 points on a team that finished 2nd last in the league.  The next season they added Malkin, Staal and some other pieces and suddenly they were up to 5th in the Eastern Conference.  You wouldn't argue that Crosby failed to get it done putting up 110 points - you'd say the team wasn't good enough overall.  As you alluded to - it's not the NBA.  Even a Crosby alone can't carry a team.

So...What is your solution?  You just keep defending him, and showing somewhat questionable stats without providing any solutions!  How do we best utilize Kessel?  How do we obtain that Malkin AND Staal type players (your example, not mine) for Kessel that are of similar age and skill that is going to lead the Leafs to being a perennial Stanley Cup contender during Kessel's remaining prime years?

Calm down.  Somewhat questionable stats?  I don't make them up, they are what they are.

The solution to what?  I never said I had any grand solutions.  I'm defending the notion that Kessel is somehow a symptom of what's wrong with the team or the primary reason for their recent failures.  If there's a solution, the solution is to improve the team, same as it was when the Leafs had Mats Sundin and weren't winning, same as when they've had any great player and weren't winning.

There's no magic formula.  If they decide they want to trade him, it should be for a very good package.  If they just want to get rid of everyone, damn the cost, then I have no idea because that doesn't take much thought to get rid of good players for little return.

 

[cw]

Well Bill Watters thinks the Leafs would get a an average pick a roster player with bad contract and would have to retain almost have of Kessls salary.. the senile old coot

I've been critical of Kessel and his value and that may be over the top to me.

He's paid as a top 10 NHLer but although he's sometimes a top 10 scorer, in my opinion, he isn't a top 10 NHLer. Ask yourself honestly, if you could pick any 10 players in the league for your team, would Kessel be on your list? Handily, my answer without even having to look is no - I don't even have to think about it as it's not that close for me. And I felt that way long before this season.

He's never received a vote for the Hart Trophy and he won't this season.
He's never been elected to the 1st or 2nd All Star team and he won't this season.
How could both those things be true and he be a top 10 NHL player?
Yep, it's just another subjective metric. But one more that doesn't add up for me.

In my opinion:

If they eat some of his contract - such that the net is his fair contract value, then they should get full pop for his talent value in prospects/picks.

If they don't eat some of his contract - such that the net is higher than his fair contract value, then they should get a discounted return on his value in prospects/picks to make up for that.

To eat a bunch of his contract such that the net is his fair contract value AND get a discounted return on his value in prospects/picks is double banging.

If they were to eat part of his contract such that the net is still above his fair value, that's the only condition that maybe some discounted return on his value in prospects/picks is appropriate.

A simpler way of looking at it might be:
Take what you think he's worth in young talent and then subtract what you think some of that young talent would take to even up his contract.

That's what I think the GMs that look at this are going to do. The Leafs are not going to get a King's ransom in young talent return because of his contract - unless they eat some of it. There's no two 1sts and a 2nd coming back this time without some dollars going the other way.

 

[pmrules]

I love reading comments about how people want Zach Sill on the team next year because he punched Steve Ott in the face, but Phil Kessel is just a huge pile of crap because he can't single handedly win games. Phil Kessel is the problem, not the other 9 useless forwards that make up this roster. Just Phil.

As it turned out, Leafs did find someone to replace Sundin. Just not in the way that counts.

It's crazy.  In 05-06 Crosby had 110 points on a team that finished 2nd last in the league.  The next season they added Malkin, Staal and some other pieces and suddenly they were up to 5th in the Eastern Conference.  You wouldn't argue that Crosby failed to get it done putting up 110 points - you'd say the team wasn't good enough overall.  As you alluded to - it's not the NBA.  Even a Crosby alone can't carry a team.

So...What is your solution?  You just keep defending him, and showing somewhat questionable stats without providing any solutions!  How do we best utilize Kessel?  How do we obtain that Malkin AND Staal type players (your example, not mine) for Kessel that are of similar age and skill that is going to lead the Leafs to being a perennial Stanley Cup contender during Kessel's remaining prime years?

Calm down.  Somewhat questionable stats?  I don't make them up, they are what they are.

The solution to what?  I never said I had any grand solutions.  I'm defending the notion that Kessel is somehow a symptom of what's wrong with the team or the primary reason for their recent failures.  If there's a solution, the solution is to improve the team, same as it was when the Leafs had Mats Sundin and weren't winning, same as when they've had any great player and weren't winning.

There's no magic formula.  If they decide they want to trade him, it should be for a very good package.  If they just want to get rid of everyone, damn the cost, then I have no idea because that doesn't take much thought to get rid of good players for little return.

I'm just trying to understand your position, because I'm not sure I understand it.  You keep defending him but don't say how we are supposed to go from 4th last in 2015 to a Stanley cup contender with Kessel.  That's kind of a key point.  Pointing out that Crosby couldn't do it when he was a first year player, doesn't actually help answer that key question. 

 

[Courtnall]

Yes everyone, I've failed to see it before but Kessel is the answer. Who wouldn't want a player who shuns the fans, doesn't play defense, basically does what he wants on the ice and doesn't buy into any system and now has quit on the team. HES AWESOME! And if you don't believe he has quit then I'm not sure what you're watching. He is a friggin disgrace to the leafs symbol. The guy can score goals (which he isn't anymore) and that's it. If he gave it out there with half of the passion he did when he spoke about the media and phaneuf id dare say he'd be a keeper. But he doesn't and he should be put in the press box as punishment. Instead horachek will cut up his steak for him and make sure his bottle is warm before bed.

 

[cw]

Bottom line for Phil is if he mails in another off season with the Leafs or any other team it's not going to go well for him next year either.  I think he's reached an age where his lack of conditioning has caught up with him. He can't get away with it anymore. The older he gets the worse it's going to get unless he commits to being in better shape.

There is no evidence of a "lack of conditioning".

When I read that, I got curious. I looked at his points scored before and after Jan 1 for each Leafs season except the lockout.

If he dropped off, like we see with rookies for example, that might be evidence of a "lack of conditioning".

I also tossed out this season because it's arguably an outlier.

His ppg before Jan 1 was .875.
His ppg after Jan 1 was .901.

Although there's not enough data to be absolutely conclusive, his ppg improving a bit as the season went on crudely refutes the notion that his general conditioning has been a significant issue.

Damian Cox reported he'd tested top 3 in training camp not long ago.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

I love reading comments about how people want Zach Sill on the team next year because he punched Steve Ott in the face, but Phil Kessel is just a huge pile of crap because he can't single handedly win games. Phil Kessel is the problem, not the other 9 useless forwards that make up this roster. Just Phil.

As it turned out, Leafs did find someone to replace Sundin. Just not in the way that counts.

It's crazy.  In 05-06 Crosby had 110 points on a team that finished 2nd last in the league.  The next season they added Malkin, Staal and some other pieces and suddenly they were up to 5th in the Eastern Conference.  You wouldn't argue that Crosby failed to get it done putting up 110 points - you'd say the team wasn't good enough overall.  As you alluded to - it's not the NBA.  Even a Crosby alone can't carry a team.

I think the only shot the Leafs have of adding Crosby, Malkin, Staal is by trading guys like Kessel for picks/prospects, and hoping guys like Hunter can elevate their drafting. 

 

[cw]

I love reading comments about how people want Zach Sill on the team next year because he punched Steve Ott in the face, but Phil Kessel is just a huge pile of crap because he can't single handedly win games. Phil Kessel is the problem, not the other 9 useless forwards that make up this roster. Just Phil.

As it turned out, Leafs did find someone to replace Sundin. Just not in the way that counts.

It's crazy.  In 05-06 Crosby had 110 points on a team that finished 2nd last in the league.  The next season they added Malkin, Staal and some other pieces and suddenly they were up to 5th in the Eastern Conference.  You wouldn't argue that Crosby failed to get it done putting up 110 points - you'd say the team wasn't good enough overall.  As you alluded to - it's not the NBA.  Even a Crosby alone can't carry a team.

In '05-06, were Pens fans howling (like Leafs fans) about Crosby's lack of effort racking up those 100+ points?
I don't recall that happening.

Rookie Crosby racked up 100+ points, -1 (9th on team) on the 2nd worst team in the NHL.
Veteran Phil is on pace for about 58 points, -37 (worst on team) on the 4th worst team in the NHL.

Beyond the observations about Phil's floating, those are strikingly different results to me (to put it mildly).

In '06, rookie Crosby was 6th in league scoring, got a couple of Hart votes, finished 3rd in All star voting among centers and was 2nd to Ovechkin in the Calder. And he did that playing on a lousy team.

In '15, veteran Phil is going to finish around 50th in league scoring playing on a lousy team. And any votes he gets for anything will not be for good things.

I was thinking about Wendal Clark today. He played on a bunch of bad Leafs teams and didn't win a thing. But he remains very highly regarded because of the kind of effort he made when his team was down. When you've got a guy like that, I think you stand a much better chance of building something than you do around a guy like Kessel - even though Kessel has more talent.

 

[herman]

I think the only shot the Leafs have of adding Crosby, Malkin, Staal is by trading guys like Kessel for picks/prospects, and hoping guys like Hunter can elevate their drafting.

Has anyone been listening to the draft recap on TSN Drive these past few weeks?
I was first exposed to hockey in the abbreviated 93 Cup run (thanks Fraser), and then again in 2000, so hearing about all the managerial failures leading up to what we have now has been enlightening.

We've gone a long time treading water with buying just slightly above average teams to placate the fanbase, trading away picks every chance we had. I am glad they seem to have figured out that drafting and development are the keys to long term sustainable success. I hope they place a moratorium on trading picks for the next forever.

 

[Manson]

Bottom line for Phil is if he mails in another off season with the Leafs or any other team it's not going to go well for him next year either.  I think he's reached an age where his lack of conditioning has caught up with him. He can't get away with it anymore. The older he gets the worse it's going to get unless he commits to being in better shape.

There is no evidence of a "lack of conditioning".

When I read that, I got curious. I looked at his points scored before and after Jan 1 for each Leafs season except the lockout.

If he dropped off, like we see with rookies for example, that might be evidence of a "lack of conditioning".

I also tossed out this season because it's arguably an outlier.

His ppg before Jan 1 was .875.
His ppg after Jan 1 was .901.

Although there's not enough data to be absolutely conclusive, his ppg improving a bit as the season went on crudely refutes the notion that his general conditioning has been a significant issue.

Damian Cox reported he'd tested top 3 in training camp not long ago.

Nice work, but I'm not sure January 1 is a fair break point.  He should be in mid-season form at that time.  I think March 1 forward would be a better indication of conditioning, if you feel so inclined.

 

[cw]

Bottom line for Phil is if he mails in another off season with the Leafs or any other team it's not going to go well for him next year either.  I think he's reached an age where his lack of conditioning has caught up with him. He can't get away with it anymore. The older he gets the worse it's going to get unless he commits to being in better shape.

There is no evidence of a "lack of conditioning".

When I read that, I got curious. I looked at his points scored before and after Jan 1 for each Leafs season except the lockout.

If he dropped off, like we see with rookies for example, that might be evidence of a "lack of conditioning".

I also tossed out this season because it's arguably an outlier.

His ppg before Jan 1 was .875.
His ppg after Jan 1 was .901.

Although there's not enough data to be absolutely conclusive, his ppg improving a bit as the season went on crudely refutes the notion that his general conditioning has been a significant issue.

Damian Cox reported he'd tested top 3 in training camp not long ago.

Nice work, but I'm not sure January 1 is a fair break point.  He should be in mid-season form at that time.  I think March 1 forward would be a better indication of conditioning, if you feel so inclined.

It's roughly 1st half vs 2nd half of the season. It roughly answers the question of whether his first half was as good as his second half - which you would not expect if his conditioning was lacking. He does have to play a lot of games after Jan 1 (after he hits mid season form).

The problem with March 1 is that it's right around the trade deadline and with the Leafs, you've got some sag from missing the playoffs - all within a smaller sampling of games. I don't think there's enough data to conclude much and it's flawed/unfair some.