The Brian Burke Thread

[Bender]

Does anyone have the picture of Burke at the TSN panel where he's grimacing painfully while the other GMs look like kids in a candy store?

 

[Bender]

It was just an "add on".  I really don't like Versteeg as a player.  Stick handles too much, slashes after whistles like it's nobody's business.  Is a coward.  And gives off that arrogance when really, he's a decent 2nd line type who went through 4 teams in 12 months.  The chewing of the mouthguard just bothers me.

I get that everyone has their idiosyncratic likes and dislikes. I like Versteeg as a player. I just never really thought about chewing his mouthguard.

It's more of a pet peeve than anything. Its something I noticed with Patrick Kane too, and most people I've talked to seem to have picked up on it. For whatever reason it seems like a pet peeve for quite a few people.

 

[Jalili]

I've always severly disliked Versteeg and his chewing the mouthguard.

There's no offense intended here but that strikes me as a really, really bizarre thing to not like about someone.

It was just an "add on".  I really don't like Versteeg as a player.  Stick handles too much, slashes after whistles like it's nobody's business.  Is a coward.  And gives off that arrogance when really, he's a decent 2nd line type who went through 4 teams in 12 months.  The chewing of the mouthguard just bothers me.

On one occasion back when he was a Leaf I could remember hearing him chirping some player on Buffalo about how much more $$ he (Versteeg) gets paid than him. If anyone's ever streamed a game at cbc.ca, the camera is between the benches which you can toggle it around, and it allows you to pick up a lot of the smack talking the players say to each other.

It's not really something I ever thought that much of, but obviously a bit of a lame thing to do.

 

[PG]

What worries me is that some of the comments Burke has made are so far off that I wonder what the hell he is seeing/thinking.

Stajan being a top-6 player (most teams wouldn't even take him for their bottom 6)....putting his defense 1-6 up against anyone's (off the top of my head I can think of 20 teams' D that I would trade the Leafs' entire D for in a heartbeat). The list goes on and on. I think even Burke didn't realize the full extent of the fans and media here. You can't just say asinine stuff in this city and think people will forget. Put up some results already.

I just don't see how they make the playoffs next season. At this point, I think just trying to make any progress should be the goal. You know, like maybe trying to not be in the bottom 6 for goals against like they have been for the last 6 seasons.

 

[PG]

That's where having the highest paid front office in NHL history earns it's dollars though, evaluating talent and grabbing the right guys in drafts.  I would assume with 22 assistant GMs the Leafs might be able to draft better than the Isles or Columbus.

But it's also a lousy comparison because of the realities of the franchises being mentioned. Comparing the Leafs to the struggles of teams who had extremely limited budgets during the pre-cap era or teams who had terrible ownership or awful GM's...well, it's not entirely legitimate.

I agree with both of you. People who are fully confident in Burke's ability should believe that he would fare better, in a true rebuild, than some of the worst GMs in recent history that were listed there.

Further to your point, I don't know this for sure but I'd wager a guess that Nonis makes more money than most GMs in the league.

 

[moon111]

Some people forget, the Leafs were doing pretty good for years.  Although the Habs won the Cup in '93, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the Leafs who won the most playoff rounds since.  No decent picks = no decent prospects in system.  Then add JFJ, who did a terrible job.  Then to top it off, add a salary cap to the system.  I'd dare to say, it was way too optimistic to think the Leafs would be doing well by now.  I predicted they'd stink until Tucker's buy-out expires... and that hasn't failed me yet.

 

[Corn Flake]

Some people forget, the Leafs were doing pretty good for years.  Although the Habs won the Cup in '93, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the Leafs who won the most playoff rounds since.  No decent picks = no decent prospects in system.  Then add JFJ, who did a terrible job.  Then to top it off, add a salary cap to the system.  I'd dare to say, it was way too optimistic to think the Leafs would be doing well by now.  I predicted they'd stink until Tucker's buy-out expires... and that hasn't failed me yet.

If memory serves, the Leafs were in the top 4 or 5 teams for number of playoff rounds played from '98-'04.

 

[riff raff]

Some people forget, the Leafs were doing pretty good for years.  Although the Habs won the Cup in '93, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the Leafs who won the most playoff rounds since.   No decent picks = no decent prospects in system.  Then add JFJ, who did a terrible job.  Then to top it off, add a salary cap to the system.  I'd dare to say, it was way too optimistic to think the Leafs would be doing well by now.  I predicted they'd stink until Tucker's buy-out expires... and that hasn't failed me yet.

This has been conveniently forgotten by everyone who likes to point out that the Leafs have sucked for 45 years.

 

[bustaheims]

Some people forget, the Leafs were doing pretty good for years.  Although the Habs won the Cup in '93, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the Leafs who won the most playoff rounds since.  No decent picks = no decent prospects in system.  Then add JFJ, who did a terrible job.  Then to top it off, add a salary cap to the system.  I'd dare to say, it was way too optimistic to think the Leafs would be doing well by now.  I predicted they'd stink until Tucker's buy-out expires... and that hasn't failed me yet.

That doesn't really hold water when you actually look at most of those drafts. The odds are lower, sure, but, instead of trading some of those picks and/or having a scouting staff that made better choices, the Leafs could have had guys like Havlat, Cammaleri, Cam Ward, Hudler, Kesler/Richards/Perry, Backes, Schneider, Dubinsky/Krecji and Edler/Franzen coming up through they system over the past decade - and that's just looking at the early rounds of the 99-04 drafts.

 

[Zee]

Some people forget, the Leafs were doing pretty good for years.  Although the Habs won the Cup in '93, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the Leafs who won the most playoff rounds since.   No decent picks = no decent prospects in system.  Then add JFJ, who did a terrible job.  Then to top it off, add a salary cap to the system.  I'd dare to say, it was way too optimistic to think the Leafs would be doing well by now.  I predicted they'd stink until Tucker's buy-out expires... and that hasn't failed me yet.

This has been conveniently forgotten by everyone who likes to point out that the Leafs have sucked for 45 years.

So limited playoff success in the early 90s and late 90s/early 2000s makes up for no Cups and no final appearances since 1967?  Ok.

 

[riff raff]

Some people forget, the Leafs were doing pretty good for years.  Although the Habs won the Cup in '93, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the Leafs who won the most playoff rounds since.   No decent picks = no decent prospects in system.  Then add JFJ, who did a terrible job.  Then to top it off, add a salary cap to the system.  I'd dare to say, it was way too optimistic to think the Leafs would be doing well by now.  I predicted they'd stink until Tucker's buy-out expires... and that hasn't failed me yet.

This has been conveniently forgotten by everyone who likes to point out that the Leafs have sucked for 45 years.

So limited playoff success in the early 90s and late 90s/early 2000s makes up for no Cups and no final appearances since 1967?  Ok.

Where does it say it 'makes up for it'?

If your definition of 'sucking' is 'not winning the cup' and you are saying that every year 29 teams 'sucked' then OK.

 

[proteus2000]

I remember the early 90s and early 2000s fondly, as the Leafs had some good teams and I was a kid. However, with no finals appearances to show for it, and the fact that they have the longest streak of not making the playoffs, renders these highlight years obsolete. The Habs have a final 4 appearance since. The Sens, Nucks, Flames, and Oilers have all been in the finals (3 of these teams coming 1 win short of winning the cup).

We have nothing to be proud of by this point, really.

 

[Kin]

Some people forget, the Leafs were doing pretty good for years.  Although the Habs won the Cup in '93, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the Leafs who won the most playoff rounds since.   No decent picks = no decent prospects in system.  Then add JFJ, who did a terrible job.  Then to top it off, add a salary cap to the system.  I'd dare to say, it was way too optimistic to think the Leafs would be doing well by now.  I predicted they'd stink until Tucker's buy-out expires... and that hasn't failed me yet.

This has been conveniently forgotten by everyone who likes to point out that the Leafs have sucked for 45 years.

I don't know that it's forgotten, exactly. I'm guessing most people have vague memories of the Gilmour/Sundin Maple Leafs. I'm thinking that most of them are speaking illustratively and not hung up on the technicality that they should really be saying "The Leafs have sucked for 34 or 35 of the last 45 years".

 

[riff raff]

I think it would be more accurate to say the Leafs have failed for 45 years.

That's not the same as "sucking" but it is failure - which is not really debatable.

 

[Kin]

I think it would be more accurate to say the Leafs have failed for 45 years.

That's not the same as "sucking" but it is failure - which is not really debatable.

Like I said, I don't think people saying that are going for technically precise descriptions of the last 45 years of play. If nothing else, the use of a non-specific pejorative like "sucked" should probably be a hint that you're not exactly dealing with Samuel Johnson.

 

[moon111]

Some people forget, the Leafs were doing pretty good for years.  Although the Habs won the Cup in '93, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the Leafs who won the most playoff rounds since.  No decent picks = no decent prospects in system.  Then add JFJ, who did a terrible job.  Then to top it off, add a salary cap to the system.  I'd dare to say, it was way too optimistic to think the Leafs would be doing well by now.  I predicted they'd stink until Tucker's buy-out expires... and that hasn't failed me yet.

That doesn't really hold water when you actually look at most of those drafts. The odds are lower, sure, but, instead of trading some of those picks and/or having a scouting staff that made better choices, the Leafs could have had guys like Havlat, Cammaleri, Cam Ward, Hudler, Kesler/Richards/Perry, Backes, Schneider, Dubinsky/Krecji and Edler/Franzen coming up through they system over the past decade - and that's just looking at the early rounds of the 99-04 drafts.

Could of had guys like that, and instead had guys like:  Leetch, Sundin, Belfour, Mogilny, Francis
, Nieuwendyk, Roberts, Nolan.  Some were older, but honestly a lot less of a gamble then draft picks that were late enough not to be sure fire bets.  The lock-out came at the worst possible time for the Leafs and changed the system to the worst imaginable for the organization.  It's been a hard road just to get the prospect system built up to this level, now there's still going to be a wait before that starts paying dividends.

 

[bustaheims]

Could of had guys like that, and instead had guys like:  Leetch, Sundin, Belfour, Mogilny, Francis
, Nieuwendyk, Roberts, Nolan.  Some were older, but honestly a lot less of a gamble then draft picks that were late enough not to be sure fire bets.  The lock-out came at the worst possible time for the Leafs and changed the system to the worst imaginable for the organization.  It's been a hard road just to get the prospect system built up to this level, now there's still going to be a wait before that starts paying dividends.

Sure, but outside of Leetch (who really contributed next to nothing to the Leafs) and Nolan (who didn't contribute enough to justify how much the team sacrificed to acquire him), every single one of the player you listed could still have been acquired and the Leafs could have had the picks to pick up a number of the players I listed.

EDIT: The reason the Leafs were in such a terrible position coming out the lockout wasn't because they were a good team coming into it, but, because of some of the assets they sacrificed poorly and because they did not draft well in the 5 years leading up to it. From the first 3 rounds of the drafts from 99-04 (where the players I listed were all taken), the players drafted by the Leafs who are still in the NHL are Boyes, Colaiacovo, Harrison, Steen, and Stajan - not exactly on par with the guys I listed a couple posts up, are they?

 

[KW Sluggo]

Some people forget, the Leafs were doing pretty good for years.  Although the Habs won the Cup in '93, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the Leafs who won the most playoff rounds since.   No decent picks = no decent prospects in system.  Then add JFJ, who did a terrible job.  Then to top it off, add a salary cap to the system.  I'd dare to say, it was way too optimistic to think the Leafs would be doing well by now.  I predicted they'd stink until Tucker's buy-out expires... and that hasn't failed me yet.

This has been conveniently forgotten by everyone who likes to point out that the Leafs have sucked for 45 years.

Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.

Bottom line: we have not won in 45 years.

All the rest is unimportant, particularly after 45 years. Put on "rose coloured glasses" if you wish, but don't criticize those of us who choose not to do so.

This is hockey, not grenades or horseshoes, so close does not count -- not that we were all that close anyway.

Unless you are a shareholder of MLSE, playing two or more rounds of the playoffs is not winning.

 

[riff raff]

Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.

Bottom line: we have not won in 45 years.

All the rest is unimportant, particularly after 45 years. Put on "rose coloured glasses" if you wish, but don't criticize those of us who choose not to do so.

This is hockey, not grenades or horseshoes, so close does not count -- not that we were all that close anyway.

Unless you are a shareholder of MLSE, playing two or more rounds of the playoffs is not winning.

I think we have clarified that "not winning" equals "failure".

To clarify further, you are saying, then, that "not winning" equals "sucking".

 

[moon111]

Could of had guys like that, and instead had guys like:  Leetch, Sundin, Belfour, Mogilny, Francis
, Nieuwendyk, Roberts, Nolan.  Some were older, but honestly a lot less of a gamble then draft picks that were late enough not to be sure fire bets.  The lock-out came at the worst possible time for the Leafs and changed the system to the worst imaginable for the organization.  It's been a hard road just to get the prospect system built up to this level, now there's still going to be a wait before that starts paying dividends.

Sure, but outside of Leetch (who really contributed next to nothing to the Leafs) and Nolan (who didn't contribute enough to justify how much the team sacrificed to acquire him), every single one of the player you listed could still have been acquired and the Leafs could have had the picks to pick up a number of the players I listed.

EDIT: The reason the Leafs were in such a terrible position coming out the lockout wasn't because they were a good team coming into it, but, because of some of the assets they sacrificed poorly and because they did not draft well in the 5 years leading up to it. From the first 3 rounds of the drafts from 99-04 (where the players I listed were all taken), the players drafted by the Leafs who are still in the NHL are Boyes, Colaiacovo, Harrison, Steen, and Stajan - not exactly on par with the guys I listed a couple posts up, are they?

I thought Steen and Stajan were excellent picks.  They were taken very late in their rounds yet are better then half the other players, some who never played a game in the NHL.