The Lupul Situation

[CarltonTheBear]

I'm simply pointing out that until we have any kind of evidence, anecdotal or otherwise to the contrary, why not take them at their word?

Well I think that we do have some sort of evidence here. This isn't a situation like Nathan Horton's. With Horton we KNOW that he has a degenerative back issue that's actually effecting his quality of life. He's given multiple interviews in the past where he's spoken about how his hockey career is over. Nobody is suggesting anything nefarious in that situation.

But Lupul's is different. For starters, do we even know what his injury is? The last we heard was that he had surgery for an abdominal injury. Is that actually something that can end a career? Because his social media posts seem to suggest that he's still living a pretty active lifestyle. Horton has problems picking up his kids. Also, in all the rare occurrences he's spoken he's remained steadfast in his belief that his hockey career is not over. And other players like Kadri backed that up last year. Further evidence? The other day he literally called the Leafs cheaters. I mean, what exactly does he have to gain by completely lying about that? Again, like I said before, I don't think there's anything really wrong with the Leafs "cheating" the system here, and I think Lupul understands that too. He was just frustrated when he said it.

 

[slapshot]

I think Lupul proved to be a stand-up guys. Admitted he erred, explained why and apologized to everyone. That should be the end of it.

 

[Kin]

But Lupul's is different. For starters, do we even know what his injury is? The last we heard was that he had surgery for an abdominal injury. Is that actually something that can end a career?

I think this is key. And, again trying to be as respectful as possible of the line of what we should say and what we shouldn't, but when we heard about this abdominal issue there was a, shall we say undercurrent, of a belief that this "injury" would be the end of Lupul's time with the Maple Leafs which is a very weird thing to think about any injury for a guy with 2 years left on his deal.

I mean, even with Horton I think it was more "Horton's got a serious back problem, let's see if he can recover".

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

But Lupul's is different. For starters, do we even know what his injury is? The last we heard was that he had surgery for an abdominal injury. Is that actually something that can end a career?

I don't disagree with any of what you've written in your full post, but let's play devil's advocate with the quoted portion for a second.

Joffrey Lupul was a player who's upper body was in such bad shape that he had to have an orthopedic back support placed in his locker when he was "healthy" and then 1.5 years ago he had a sports hernia that was bad enough that it needed to be operated on. Is it outside the realm of possibility that with a seriously damaged back and an issue with the muscles that connect his core to his lower body, Joffrey will never be healthy enough to play in the NHL?

Is it possible that as a relatively young man who has fought through injuries in the past, Joffrey believes that he can come back, despite doctors telling him otherwise?

If we forget all the speculation about off-ice problems, Joffrey isn't interested in getting a second opinion on the Leafs medical teams decision, so is it possible that deep down he knows what they are saying is true?

The truth is we don't know and I don't think admitting that is somehow giving the Leafs a pass or condemning Lupul.

 

[Kin]

Joffrey Lupul was a player who's upper body was in such bad shape that he had to have an orthopedic back support placed in his locker when he was "healthy" and then 1.5 years ago he had a sports hernia that was bad enough that it needed to be operated on. Is it outside the realm of possibility that with a seriously damaged back and an issue with the muscles that connect his core to his lower body, Joffrey will never be healthy enough to play in the NHL?

This is the seriously damaged back he had before he was a Leaf and that, AFAIK, never seemed to cause him to miss time when he was with Toronto? I think that's a bit of a stretch to think that's a major contributing factor here. Without that you're left with "Is it possible that a sports hernia ended Joffrey Lupul's career beyond any real hope at rehabilitation?"

But beyond that we're under no obligation to have the burden of proof of a criminal case. We don't have to think what we think beyond a reasonable doubt. We have enough facts and circumstantial things in front of us that we can come to reasonable conclusions.

 

[sneakyray]

I'm simply pointing out that until we have any kind of evidence, anecdotal or otherwise to the contrary, why not take them at their word?

Well I think that we do have some sort of evidence here. This isn't a situation like Nathan Horton's. With Horton we KNOW that he has a degenerative back issue that's actually effecting his quality of life. He's given multiple interviews in the past where he's spoken about how his hockey career is over. Nobody is suggesting anything nefarious in that situation.

But Lupul's is different. For starters, do we even know what his injury is? The last we heard was that he had surgery for an abdominal injury. Is that actually something that can end a career? Because his social media posts seem to suggest that he's still living a pretty active lifestyle. Horton has problems picking up his kids. Also, in all the rare occurrences he's spoken he's remained steadfast in his belief that his hockey career is not over. And other players like Kadri backed that up last year. Further evidence? The other day he literally called the Leafs cheaters. I mean, what exactly does he have to gain by completely lying about that? Again, like I said before, I don't think there's anything really wrong with the Leafs "cheating" the system here, and I think Lupul understands that too. He was just frustrated when he said it.

I think though what is missing is all the stories of his burning passion to play hockey again.  There are no stories of him skating with jr teams to get in shape, there are no stories of him working with skills coaches and how he is in the best shape of his career; is faster, stronger and shoots harder than ever before.  Just some social media posts of tennis, snowboarding and the like (which also went dark for a year).  I mean, couldn't he come to toronto and workout on the ice during the summer and just show people how good he is? 

Instead he posts pictures at other sporting events and doing leisure activities.  It doesn't scream pro athlete at the peak of physical conditioning.  At the end of the day I believe the team when they say he isn't healty enugh to stand up to the grind of the nhl schedule and him saying no second opinion basically seals the deal for me.

 

[Kin]

At the end of the day I believe the team when they say he isn't healty enugh to stand up to the grind of the nhl schedule and him saying no second opinion basically seals the deal for me.

Just to focus on this but I'm pretty sure that's not what is being said when the team puts him on IR. "The Grind of the Schedule" implies that the wear and tear will eventually either render him less effective or unable to play.

Saying a player is injured, however, is saying he physically can't play to a reasonable degree right now. Not over time. You can't claim a player is "injured" because they're out of shape either.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I think though what is missing is all the stories of his burning passion to play hockey again.  There are no stories of him skating with jr teams to get in shape, there are no stories of him working with skills coaches and how he is in the best shape of his career; is faster, stronger and shoots harder than ever before.  Just some social media posts of tennis, snowboarding and the like (which also went dark for a year).  I mean, couldn't he come to toronto and workout on the ice during the summer and just show people how good he is? 

Instead he posts pictures at other sporting events and doing leisure activities.  It doesn't scream pro athlete at the peak of physical conditioning.  At the end of the day I believe the team when they say he isn't healty enugh to stand up to the grind of the nhl schedule and him saying no second opinion basically seals the deal for me.

I've brought this up before too but I think that all this means is that Lupul has accepted the Leafs position that he won't be playing hockey again during the duration of his deal, regardless of his health.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

We have enough facts and circumstantial things in front of us that we can come to reasonable conclusions.

From the Globe and Mail last year.

?Lupul turns 33 on Friday ? but has had dozens of injuries in recent years, missing nearly 40 per cent of the Leafs' games the past four seasons. He also had a nearly career-ending back injury and infections six years ago that left him with long-term issues.

The past several years, Lupul's dressing room stall at the Leafs rink had a special cushion because it was difficult for him to sit on the hard surface.?

Discounting the back injury, which I have a hard time doing, he hadn't played a healthy season in the five years prior and then in addition to his back issues he had a significant sports hernia issue.

Given that and given the licensed medical professionals who have declared him unfit, we have enough facts and circumstantial things in front of us that we can come to reasonable conclusions.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

If we forget all the speculation about off-ice problems, Joffrey isn't interested in getting a second opinion on the Leafs medical teams decision, so is it possible that deep down he knows what they are saying is true?

Nik touched on some of the other stuff I'd say here, I just wanted to say that for the record none of my beliefs are centred around the idea that there's off-ice problems involved. And if there were, I'd be a lot more upset about how the Leafs are handling this as opposed to if they were just playing loose with the injury rules. Sweeping something like that under the rug would be an awful way to handle that problem. And potentially using it as blackmail as one crappy Toronto columnist suggested would be downright despicable.

 

[Kin]

Discounting the back injury, which I have a hard time doing, he hadn't played a healthy season in the five years prior and then in addition to his back issues he had a significant sports hernia issue.

Sure. But mainly due to things like concussions and a Dion Phaneuf slapshot hitting him in the arm. Unlucky, sure, but not things that compound or contribute to sports hernias and the recoveries from.

Given that and given the licensed medical professionals who have declared him unfit...

Just so I know is the plural in "professionals" there intentional/factually supported? Have the Leafs employed multiple doctors over this time? Or have multiple doctors signed off on individual physical reports?

 

[Zee]

Lou standing behind him with his hand on Lupul's shoulder as he writes the text.

Lou: Robidas is gone. So is Jared Cowen. David Clarkson. Michalek. Bernier. Today, I settle all family business, so don't tell me you're innocent, Joffrey. Admit what you did.  Get him a drink. C'mon, don't be afraid, Joffrey. Come on, you think I'd trade you to Colorado?  Go ahead, drink. Drink. No, Joffrey, you're out of the family business, that's your punishment. We're finished. I'm putting you on a plane to Vegas. Kyle? [Dubas gets Joffrey plane tickets]  I want you to stay there, understand? Only, don't tell me you're innocent, because it insults my intelligence. It makes me very angry. Now who approached you? Clarkson or Bernier?

Lupul: It was Bernier.

Lou: Good. There's a car waiting for you outside, it'll take you to the airport. I'll call your bookie and tell him what flight you're on.

 

[sneakyray]

At the end of the day I believe the team when they say he isn't healty enugh to stand up to the grind of the nhl schedule and him saying no second opinion basically seals the deal for me.

Just to focus on this but I'm pretty sure that's not what is being said when the team puts him on IR. "The Grind of the Schedule" implies that the wear and tear will eventually either render him less effective or unable to play.

Saying a player is injured, however, is saying he physically can't play to a reasonable degree right now. Not over time. You can't claim a player is "injured" because they're out of shape either.

no, I agree...poor choice of words.

clearly hes too hurt to play now...but I often wonder what the issue is that gets him on the LTIR.

he could have forced the leafs hand either by proving hes too good to keep off the ice or by going the PA second opinion route...so I think hes just not interested.

 

[Kin]

clearly hes too hurt to play now...

Well, no. What's made this thread so much fun the last few days is that that is very much unclear.

Some of us feel that Lupul could probably play right now but the Leafs aren't interested in that and Lupul, while he's not thrilled with it, is more or less content to sit back and earn money to not play.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

The NHL is going to have him checked out, I guess we will have an answer pretty soon.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://twitter.com/mirtle/status/910989123313442816

Well this should be interesting.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Just an interesting note, the league apparently has done this multiple times over the past few years for teams consistently using LTIR.

 

[herman]

Just an interesting note, the league apparently has done this multiple times over the past few years for teams consistently using LTIR.

I?ve read in passing Philadelphia being a prime example, but I never followed them so I have little idea which players this might be referring to (assuming Pronger).

Edit: I remember now: the latest 31 Thoughts
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/jason-blake-knows-well-whats-ahead-brian-boyle/ #2

Side effect: results might be outside Lou's Cone of Silence.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The Athletic's (unlocked) story on this: https://theathletic.com/107546/2017/09/21/mirtle-a-closer-look-at-the-nhls-investigation-into-joffrey-lupuls-health-status/

The league initiated this process. I'm told that this wasn't a result of other teams complaining but directly because the league saw the allegations from Lupul on Instagram.

...

All this said, I'm told that even if the independent doctor rules there is something off with the medicals that doesn't mean either player will necessarily return to the roster. What it could mean is that the team won't be permitted to use long-term injured reserve to get cap relief from these contracts.

At the moment, the Leafs can easily become cap compliant even with Lupul's full contract on the books. Obviously that isn't ideal ? having $5.25 million in dead cap space instead of a pile of money to spend during the year ? but it doesn't sound like there will be more ramifications than that from this review.

Mirtle also mentions that Hossa's situation is being looked at too.

 

[Bender]

The Athletic's (unlocked) story on this: https://theathletic.com/107546/2017/09/21/mirtle-a-closer-look-at-the-nhls-investigation-into-joffrey-lupuls-health-status/

The league initiated this process. I'm told that this wasn't a result of other teams complaining but directly because the league saw the allegations from Lupul on Instagram.

...

All this said, I'm told that even if the independent doctor rules there is something off with the medicals that doesn't mean either player will necessarily return to the roster. What it could mean is that the team won't be permitted to use long-term injured reserve to get cap relief from these contracts.

At the moment, the Leafs can easily become cap compliant even with Lupul's full contract on the books. Obviously that isn't ideal ? having $5.25 million in dead cap space instead of a pile of money to spend during the year ? but it doesn't sound like there will be more ramifications than that from this review.

Mirtle also mentions that Hossa's situation is being looked at too.

So my fear of investigation due to instagram comments came true!