Bill_Berg
Active member
CarltonTheBear said:So reviews for Dark Tower have been, er, less than good.
If you're a fan of the novels, skip it.
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CarltonTheBear said:So reviews for Dark Tower have been, er, less than good.
Nik the Trik said:I'm reading more and more of the Harvey Weinstein stuff and while the depths of how bad it is certainly is a bit of a shock the fact is that Weinstein has for years had a reputation of being such a jerk that it's been openly lampooned in various shows.
Weinstein will face consequences, one hopes, but it's largely meaningless if we don't combine that with a hard look at the culture that allows this to thrive. Not exclusively in film either. The idea that being good at what you do excuses lousy behaviour is a toxic one. That we accept it in so many fields(entertainment, sports, politics) is something that needs a huge change.
Be a good person. What you make is not more important than who you are. Don't support bad things. None of these are hard concepts.
L K said:Nik the Trik said:I'm reading more and more of the Harvey Weinstein stuff and while the depths of how bad it is certainly is a bit of a shock the fact is that Weinstein has for years had a reputation of being such a jerk that it's been openly lampooned in various shows.
Weinstein will face consequences, one hopes, but it's largely meaningless if we don't combine that with a hard look at the culture that allows this to thrive. Not exclusively in film either. The idea that being good at what you do excuses lousy behaviour is a toxic one. That we accept it in so many fields(entertainment, sports, politics) is something that needs a huge change.
Be a good person. What you make is not more important than who you are. Don't support bad things. None of these are hard concepts.
The "I'm shocked and outraged" talk from the Hollywood types right now is grating. It was openly lampooned and the rumours were going around forever. Weinstein is also one of those guys who you piss off and your career is toast if you don't have enough clout so it isn't like we are talking about a small executive. EVERYONE knew what he was doing and kept quiet about it. Stop pretending like you didn't know.
Significantly Insignificant said:I'm having a hard time reconciling all of this. I don't know how we can come back from it, at least not this generation. Men just treat women horribly on the grand scale. Changes need to be made to our society, and I am just not sure how those changes are going to get made. Women have to be seen as people and not as sexual objects, but then where do we draw that line? This means that we have to get rid of things like the Carl's Jr. ads, things like the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition, and the Sunshine girl in the paper. We have to get rid of them, not because it's wrong for women to do them, but because it's clear that men can't handle that sort of stimulation. Somehow we have to teach men that when a women is looking attractive it is because she is trying to feel good about herself and not because she is actually trying to attract attention from men. I just feel horrible being a male these days. I just don't know where things went off the rails, or if it was always that way, and the men that are in the world today are just the ones left holding the bag and have to clean this mess that the previous generations of males made up.
bustaheims said:The bolded is the issue. We need to educate men at a young age how to handle these stimuli. All removing them really does is enforce the perception that women being comfortable with their sexuality is somehow wrong and needs to be hidden (some of them should probably be removed, yes - like the Sunshine girl - others need to be reframed or retained).
bustaheims said:Significantly Insignificant said:I'm having a hard time reconciling all of this. I don't know how we can come back from it, at least not this generation. Men just treat women horribly on the grand scale. Changes need to be made to our society, and I am just not sure how those changes are going to get made. Women have to be seen as people and not as sexual objects, but then where do we draw that line? This means that we have to get rid of things like the Carl's Jr. ads, things like the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition, and the Sunshine girl in the paper. We have to get rid of them, not because it's wrong for women to do them, but because it's clear that men can't handle that sort of stimulation. Somehow we have to teach men that when a women is looking attractive it is because she is trying to feel good about herself and not because she is actually trying to attract attention from men. I just feel horrible being a male these days. I just don't know where things went off the rails, or if it was always that way, and the men that are in the world today are just the ones left holding the bag and have to clean this mess that the previous generations of males made up.
The bolded is the issue. We need to educate men at a young age how to handle these stimuli. All removing them really does is enforce the perception that women being comfortable with their sexuality is somehow wrong and needs to be hidden (some of them should probably be removed, yes - like the Sunshine girl - others need to be reframed or retained).
Significantly Insignificant said:Yeah, I see your point. I just don't know how we go from one to the other. I don't necessarily disagree with you, because I do believe that the root of the problem is in the way men perceive women. It's just that if your primarily portray something as a sexual object, then how do you get around not seeing that thing as a sexual object.
bustaheims said:Significantly Insignificant said:Yeah, I see your point. I just don't know how we go from one to the other. I don't necessarily disagree with you, because I do believe that the root of the problem is in the way men perceive women. It's just that if your primarily portray something as a sexual object, then how do you get around not seeing that thing as a sexual object.
Perception is definitely the primary issue, as it colours your interpretation of portrayal. For example, the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue could be perceived as either portraying women as sexual objects or admiring the beauty of the female form (or, most likely, both). The shift needs to be from the former to the latter - and that can really only come about with proper education and less puritanical societal attitudes towards sexuality. Obviously, it won't get rid of all the problems - at the end of the day, assholes are going to continue to act like assholes, regardless of how frequently and emphatically society tells them they're being assholes - but it should reduce it quite drastically.
Significantly Insignificant said:I hope so, because right now it feels like we are all assholes.
Significantly Insignificant said:I'm having a hard time reconciling all of this. I don't know how we can come back from it, at least not this generation. Men just treat women horribly on the grand scale. Changes need to be made to our society, and I am just not sure how those changes are going to get made. Women have to be seen as people and not as sexual objects, but then where do we draw that line? This means that we have to get rid of things like the Carl's Jr. ads, things like the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition, and the Sunshine girl in the paper. We have to get rid of them, not because it's wrong for women to do them, but because it's clear that men can't handle that sort of stimulation. Somehow we have to teach men that when a women is looking attractive it is because she is trying to feel good about herself and not because she is actually trying to attract attention from men. I just feel horrible being a male these days. I just don't know where things went off the rails, or if it was always that way, and the men that are in the world today are just the ones left holding the bag and have to clean this mess that the previous generations of males made up.
herman said:I agree a lot with what busta is saying. Hiding from is not the same as learning to navigate difficult situations.
I'd also caution against trying to figure out the male brain/female brain difference, because a) it gives license to treat genders differently; b) there is no scientific basis that male brains are intrinsically different than female brains, other than size (which is also a non-factor because it's gray-to-white matter ratio stuff). The differences you see come about because of societal/cultural conditioning. Don't be that butthole who wrote a manifesto to his high-profile Silicon Valley workplace about it.
Thoughts I've been mulling:
How do you compliment your son, or young boys, in general? How do you compliment your daughter, or young girls, in general? "Great job! It was very smart how you solved that problem" or "Wow you look so pretty in that whatever you're wearing"? Those interactions teach kids what is normal and expected and what is valued about them.
Not obstructing women from having a voice in the public sphere (media, movies, ad direction, higher level education, politics, etc.) will go a long way.
Not blaming women for the failures of those who predate and abuse them will go a long way. Believe people who call out this behaviour.
Teaching boys and men how to respect girls and women (and anyone different really) as much, if not more than we teach girls and women how to protect themselves from harm will go a long way.
Nik the Trik said:Significantly Insignificant said:I'm having a hard time reconciling all of this. I don't know how we can come back from it, at least not this generation. Men just treat women horribly on the grand scale. Changes need to be made to our society, and I am just not sure how those changes are going to get made. Women have to be seen as people and not as sexual objects, but then where do we draw that line? This means that we have to get rid of things like the Carl's Jr. ads, things like the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition, and the Sunshine girl in the paper. We have to get rid of them, not because it's wrong for women to do them, but because it's clear that men can't handle that sort of stimulation. Somehow we have to teach men that when a women is looking attractive it is because she is trying to feel good about herself and not because she is actually trying to attract attention from men. I just feel horrible being a male these days. I just don't know where things went off the rails, or if it was always that way, and the men that are in the world today are just the ones left holding the bag and have to clean this mess that the previous generations of males made up.
I don't think it's quite as grim as all that. You're right, we do need a considerable shift in the way we approach this issue but I tend to be pretty optimistic that we can go a ways towards getting things correct.
In fact, I think a lot of the solutions here exist and have existed for a while, they've just tended to been rejected because they threatened entrenched power structures.
Look at what's happening with the Wonder Woman movie right now. The star of it, who has a considerable amount of leverage as she's negotiating her next deal, has said she won't sign unless if Brett Ratner is completely disassociated from the film. That is a by-product of women having more power within the industry something that women have been advocating for for quite some time. The problem has been every time diversity is brought up as something that would create a better atmosphere or environment you get a lot of "BUT WHAT ABOUT TEH MENS?" or your slightly more urbane appeals to the idea of a meritocracy(in which merit is, of course, defined by the mostly white mostly male established power structure).
And that filters down. Some of the examples you use about stimulation are valid examples of how stupid society can be at times but really they're just examples of how female beauty and female sexuality is so often defined by and distorted for the appetites of men. Again, have more women making commercials or editing magazines and newspapers and that dominant narrative holds less sway.
The really reprehensible actions of people like Louis CK and Weinstein represent a failure/criminality on their part, sure, but we shouldn't lose a focus from reforming the system that not only allowed them to persist but actively shielded them from the consequences of their actions(and seeked to silence and punish the people they abused).
So I think there's a way back from this but I think it chiefly involves radically re-examining the way power is structured and a lot less dismissing of valid complaints and concerns as "political correctness". It's a long way to go, sure, but I think the responsible thing for us to do in the service of that goal is to work towards it, even if it means us guys might be in charge a little bit less.
Significantly Insignificant said:and it got me thinking, and it got me trying to remember every interaction that I have had with a female. I'm sure I have told an off-color joke, or invalidated a women in some way with something that I have said at some point through my life trying to be funny, but failing miserably. I mean probably not through my adult years, but more than likely when I was a teenager.