The Official Movie Thread
- Thread starter CarltonTheBear
- Start date
Kin
New member
I'm reading more and more of the Harvey Weinstein stuff and while the depths of how bad it is certainly is a bit of a shock the fact is that Weinstein has for years had a reputation of being such a jerk that it's been openly lampooned in various shows.
Weinstein will face consequences, one hopes, but it's largely meaningless if we don't combine that with a hard look at the culture that allows this to thrive. Not exclusively in film either. The idea that being good at what you do excuses lousy behaviour is a toxic one. That we accept it in so many fields(entertainment, sports, politics) is something that needs a huge change.
Be a good person. What you make is not more important than who you are. Don't support bad things. None of these are hard concepts.
Weinstein will face consequences, one hopes, but it's largely meaningless if we don't combine that with a hard look at the culture that allows this to thrive. Not exclusively in film either. The idea that being good at what you do excuses lousy behaviour is a toxic one. That we accept it in so many fields(entertainment, sports, politics) is something that needs a huge change.
Be a good person. What you make is not more important than who you are. Don't support bad things. None of these are hard concepts.
L K
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
The "I'm shocked and outraged" talk from the Hollywood types right now is grating. It was openly lampooned and the rumours were going around forever. Weinstein is also one of those guys who you piss off and your career is toast if you don't have enough clout so it isn't like we are talking about a small executive. EVERYONE knew what he was doing and kept quiet about it. Stop pretending like you didn't know.
L K said:
I'm having a hard time reconciling all of this. I don't know how we can come back from it, at least not this generation. Men just treat women horribly on the grand scale. Changes need to be made to our society, and I am just not sure how those changes are going to get made. Women have to be seen as people and not as sexual objects, but then where do we draw that line? This means that we have to get rid of things like the Carl's Jr. ads, things like the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition, and the Sunshine girl in the paper. We have to get rid of them, not because it's wrong for women to do them, but because it's clear that men can't handle that sort of stimulation. Somehow we have to teach men that when a women is looking attractive it is because she is trying to feel good about herself and not because she is actually trying to attract attention from men. I just feel horrible being a male these days. I just don't know where things went off the rails, or if it was always that way, and the men that are in the world today are just the ones left holding the bag and have to clean this mess that the previous generations of males made up.
bustaheims
Active member
Significantly Insignificant said:
The bolded is the issue. We need to educate men at a young age how to handle these stimuli. All removing them really does is enforce the perception that women being comfortable with their sexuality is somehow wrong and needs to be hidden (some of them should probably be removed, yes - like the Sunshine girl - others need to be reframed or retained).
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
I know you mean well SI, but it's a slippery slope towards becoming the kind of puritan ultra-religious/conservative society we mock the far-right for and lambast some of the middle eastern countries for. I don't think the solution is to get rid of all traces of sexuality, that seems very backward and something that would lead to more repression and deviancy.
I agree that we need a complete societal shift, but on an individual level make sure you're the best version of yourself, project that attitude in all your interactions and teach your children to be the same, past that you cannot really be asked to do more.
If we can all do that the tide will change and the good news I think is that young people today seem much more kind and thoughtful than they ever did in the past.
I agree that we need a complete societal shift, but on an individual level make sure you're the best version of yourself, project that attitude in all your interactions and teach your children to be the same, past that you cannot really be asked to do more.
If we can all do that the tide will change and the good news I think is that young people today seem much more kind and thoughtful than they ever did in the past.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
bustaheims said:
Agreed.
As usual, busta says what I was trying to, much more eloquently than I could.
bustaheims said:
Yeah, I see your point. I just don't know how we go from one to the other. I don't necessarily disagree with you, because I do believe that the root of the problem is in the way men perceive women. It's just that if your primarily portray something as a sexual object, then how do you get around not seeing that thing as a sexual object.
For example, women who go to strip clubs, will treat the men at the strip club as if they are a sexual objects, but that is what they are being portrayed as. So in that scenario there is this social contract that everyone has agreed that this is the norm in that situation.
However in society, portraying women as sexual objects doesn't seem to stop at a strip club. Men not so much in normal society. Women get objectified in everything, because of several reasons, but I would say primarily because sex sells. So I agree that men have to learn how to handle it. I guess what I am trying look at is, can you have that solution, when there is an over abundance of material that is presenting one of the sexes in that light? If the tables were turned, and every movie had a guy with his parts hanging out, instead of a women, and every add showed a mans buttocks, would the women then perceive men as purely sexual objects? Or do women perceive stimuli such as that differently and it wouldn't be a problem? We can change the amount of the stimuli, or we can change the way the stimuli are mapped in the male brain. If we change the mapping though, I wonder if we run in to other problems.
bustaheims
Active member
Significantly Insignificant said:
Perception is definitely the primary issue, as it colours your interpretation of portrayal. For example, the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue could be perceived as either portraying women as sexual objects or admiring the beauty of the female form (or, most likely, both). The shift needs to be from the former to the latter - and that can really only come about with proper education and less puritanical societal attitudes towards sexuality. Obviously, it won't get rid of all the problems - at the end of the day, assholes are going to continue to act like assholes, regardless of how frequently and emphatically society tells them they're being assholes - but it should reduce it quite drastically.
bustaheims
Active member
Significantly Insignificant said:
There are a lot of assholes being exposed, yes, and we've all probably been guilty of being a certain degree of asshole in the past. all we can really do now is our best to not be assholes in the future, teach the younger generations to not be assholes, and support women when they come out and expose the behaviour of assholes.
herman
Well-known member
I agree a lot with what busta is saying. Hiding from is not the same as learning to navigate difficult situations.
I'd also caution against trying to figure out the male brain/female brain difference, because a) it gives license to treat genders differently; b) there is no scientific basis that male brains are intrinsically different than female brains, other than size (which is also a non-factor because it's gray-to-white matter ratio stuff). The differences you see come about because of societal/cultural conditioning. Don't be that butthole who wrote a manifesto to his high-profile Silicon Valley workplace about it.
Thoughts I've been mulling:
How do you compliment your son, or young boys, in general? How do you compliment your daughter, or young girls, in general? "Great job! It was very smart how you solved that problem" or "Wow you look so pretty in that whatever you're wearing"? Those interactions teach kids what is normal and expected and what is valued about them.
Not obstructing women from having a voice in the public sphere (media, movies, ad direction, higher level education, politics, etc.) will go a long way.
Not blaming women for the failures of those who predate and abuse them will go a long way. Believe people who call out this behaviour.
Teaching boys and men how to respect girls and women (and anyone different really) as much, if not more than we teach girls and women how to protect themselves from harm will go a long way.
I'd also caution against trying to figure out the male brain/female brain difference, because a) it gives license to treat genders differently; b) there is no scientific basis that male brains are intrinsically different than female brains, other than size (which is also a non-factor because it's gray-to-white matter ratio stuff). The differences you see come about because of societal/cultural conditioning. Don't be that butthole who wrote a manifesto to his high-profile Silicon Valley workplace about it.
Thoughts I've been mulling:
How do you compliment your son, or young boys, in general? How do you compliment your daughter, or young girls, in general? "Great job! It was very smart how you solved that problem" or "Wow you look so pretty in that whatever you're wearing"? Those interactions teach kids what is normal and expected and what is valued about them.
Not obstructing women from having a voice in the public sphere (media, movies, ad direction, higher level education, politics, etc.) will go a long way.
Not blaming women for the failures of those who predate and abuse them will go a long way. Believe people who call out this behaviour.
Teaching boys and men how to respect girls and women (and anyone different really) as much, if not more than we teach girls and women how to protect themselves from harm will go a long way.
Kin
New member
Significantly Insignificant said:
I don't think it's quite as grim as all that. You're right, we do need a considerable shift in the way we approach this issue but I tend to be pretty optimistic that we can go a ways towards getting things correct.
In fact, I think a lot of the solutions here exist and have existed for a while, they've just tended to been rejected because they threatened entrenched power structures.
Look at what's happening with the Wonder Woman movie right now. The star of it, who has a considerable amount of leverage as she's negotiating her next deal, has said she won't sign unless if Brett Ratner is completely disassociated from the film. That is a by-product of women having more power within the industry something that women have been advocating for for quite some time. The problem has been every time diversity is brought up as something that would create a better atmosphere or environment you get a lot of "BUT WHAT ABOUT TEH MENS?" or your slightly more urbane appeals to the idea of a meritocracy(in which merit is, of course, defined by the mostly white mostly male established power structure).
And that filters down. Some of the examples you use about stimulation are valid examples of how stupid society can be at times but really they're just examples of how female beauty and female sexuality is so often defined by and distorted for the appetites of men. Again, have more women making commercials or editing magazines and newspapers and that dominant narrative holds less sway.
The really reprehensible actions of people like Louis CK and Weinstein represent a failure/criminality on their part, sure, but we shouldn't lose a focus from reforming the system that not only allowed them to persist but actively shielded them from the consequences of their actions(and seeked to silence and punish the people they abused).
So I think there's a way back from this but I think it chiefly involves radically re-examining the way power is structured and a lot less dismissing of valid complaints and concerns as "political correctness". It's a long way to go, sure, but I think the responsible thing for us to do in the service of that goal is to work towards it, even if it means us guys might be in charge a little bit less.
herman said:
I understand what you are saying Herman. It's just that there are some differences between men and women. I would never say that a women thinks differently than a man or is incapable of thinking like a man. I would say that people in general care about different things based on what there own goals are in life.
However, at our cores, we are biological entities. We had a new years eve party once with a group of married couples. We played a game called Battle of the Sexes. In it one of the questions to the guys was "What sense is the biggest turn on for women?" The listed touch, sound, or sight. I picked sound. I always thought women respond to auditory cues. But, according to this game, and the women we were playing the game with, they aren't, and they react to touch. Men, for the most part, react to visual cues.
Now this isn't to paint all men and women with the same brush, but generally speaking, it would appear that we react differently to different stimuli based on our sex. So what impact does that have on people in their day to day lives? I don't want to live a puritanical life. But understanding how media affects peoples minds can go a long way to helping us how we shape the message that we actually want to be sending. I think right now, we are sending messages with the sole goal of trying to generate revenue, and that lack of forethought is seen in a lot of our ad's and movies. Look at James Cameron's comments on Wonder Woman. Do you agree with them or disagree with them?
Nik the Trik said:
Thanks for the post Nik. I may be a little on the dark side right now. I read this article this morning:
https://www.thecut.com/2017/11/rebecca-traister-on-the-post-weinstein-reckoning.html
and it got me thinking, and it got me trying to remember every interaction that I have had with a female. I'm sure I have told an off-color joke, or invalidated a women in some way with something that I have said at some point through my life trying to be funny, but failing miserably. I mean probably not through my adult years, but more than likely when I was a teenager.
After reading that article above, there really isn't an excuse for it. And that's not to say that I fit in to the Weinstein/Sex Monster grouping, but it probably mean that I'm not a "good guy" either. As WIGWAL said, at this point all I can do is teach my three boys to be a better man than I am and hope that the world gets better, but it doesn't seem like it's enough.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
SI, the fact that you are looking at all of this in great detail, analyzing your actions and trying to be better, means that you certainly are a good guy, you're part of the solution.
Nobody is perfect, but we can all try to be, give yourself a break and keep fighting the good fight.
Nobody is perfect, but we can all try to be, give yourself a break and keep fighting the good fight.
herman
Well-known member
James Cameron's comments were off base. Beauty and strength of character are not mutually exclusive (see Chris Evan's Steve Rogers portrayal, which no one has any such problems with). There are more than a handful of movies in which Gal Gadot (as well as the character of Wonder Woman) is sexualized, but Jenkin's Wonder Woman was not one of them. Cameron had a lot to say about Gadot's body, but oddly had nothing to say about the character's motivations, optimism/hopefulness, sense of justice and compassion, etc.
Kin
New member
Significantly Insignificant said:
I think the last few weeks have probably inspired a lot of similar introspection. Which is a good thing. Reflection and a genuine desire to be better in our future behaviours should be a continuous process for all of us.
But let's also acknowledge we're talking about a super-low bar to clear here(mainly it just involves not showing your genitals to anyone who doesn't want to see them). None of these scandals are about women objecting to being politely and respectfully asked out or an occasional off-colour comment.