This sucks - Burke is fiddling while Rome burns

[Kin]

Disagree. I mean, JFJ and Babcock were pretty much detested by the media in Toronto, mostly because they were cut from the same cloth. They wanted to prevent any leaks and I remember Bobcat cutting Babcock off just because he wouldn't talk about anything that could get him fined for tampering. When Burke did that recently, Bobcat was more than happy to work around it.

Colangelo and Burke on the other hand have had similar success and are still liked by many in the media. I mean, half of PR is relationship building.

Wins and losses may have been an oversimplification. I do think, however, that the determining factor in the kind of media coverage a guy gets is the perception of how well he's doing. For example, I don't think Burke or Colangelo's tenures are all that similar to the abject boobery that were the Babcock-JFJ years and I'd say the fact that they're treated better is because the perception of the job they're doing is very different. I think, for instance, if you asked people here if Burke has done a better job than JFJ you'd get a near unanimous yes. 

Anthopolous is as tightlipped as any Toronto GM in my lifetime and I think his coverage tends to be fairly positive because people are still relatively high on the job he's doing.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Maurice didn't succeed much here and was well-liked by the media and treated pretty well by them.  If memory serves anyways...

 

[Kin]

Maurice didn't succeed much here and was well-liked by the media and treated pretty well by them.  If memory serves anyways...

I think every coach/GM gets the benefit of the doubt for a little while but my memories of Maurice are definitely that as soon as he had a little time the media would always talk about him like "Yeah, he's a nice guy but..."

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Yeah, you're probably right.  That sounds familiar.

 

[Bonsixx]

Yes, you're right. He didn't say he was going to get him. He said he was going to try. But the point remains, unnecessary.

You don't think there was any eye-rolling going on in Long Island - and elsewhere - when they read that quote?

Do I think that it really changed their impression of Brian Burke or altered their intentions as to what they planned to do? No. I think they know who Brian Burke is at this point and I think that  there was never a real chance they were going to trade the Tavares pick anyway. You could maybe argue that saying what he did got some people's hopes up but I don't know if he's responsible for that. If Burke went out tomorrow and said he was try and trade for Sid Crosby I think it would be pretty self-defeating for someone's hopes to get up that it was about to happen.

No, hence the eye-rolling. Burke blathers on so much about things like the Sedin draft, I genuinely think other GMs aren't at all sad to see him fail so spectacularly in Toronto so far. The fact he pipes up with "self-defeating" comments like the Tavares one just adds to that.

If Burke offers a trade to another team that will help that team, yes, obviously they can make a deal, but maybe if it's between Burke and another GM with a similar offer, the other, less bombastic GM gets the nod?

Anyway, straying from the point, as I have no idea about the inner-workings of the NHL and what other GMs think of Burke. My original point was, if Burke kept his mouth shut about things like Tavares, like not having time for a five-year rebuild, like NCAA free agents being like first round picks, like Rielly being the best player in the draft, etc... the job he's done so far might be viewed as a little more satisfactory.

As I said, I think he's improved the franchise since he's taken over, I just want him to shut up, basically.

 

[Kin]

If Burke offers a trade to another team that will help that team, yes, obviously they can make a deal, but maybe if it's between Burke and another GM with a similar offer, the other, less bombastic GM gets the nod?

I think that's the kind of thing that sounds good but in practice I think there are always going to be hockey reasons for a GM to choose one offer over another.

Anyways, as mentioned, so long as Burke's teams don't win I don't think perception of the job he's doing is going to change much.

 

[bustaheims]

So then no matter what happens with the Leafs it's the fans fault?

Saying the one in this case is just as unfair as the other. The popular opinion of Leafs' fans doesn't mean a thing compared to the corporate interests of the club's current ownership or the demented Mr. Burns-like cartoon evil of their previous ownership. JFJ didn't make lousy trades because of fans and neither does Brian Burke.

Well, in my own way, that's what I would have been trying to point out - every viewpoint can be framed as a positive or a negative, and, at the end of the day, none of those belonging to the fans are going to have a significant impact on the actions of the franchise - barring some extraordinary circumstances where virtually everyone decides to stop spending a dime on participating as a fan of the team.

 

[#1PilarFan]

Wins and losses may have been an oversimplification. I do think, however, that the determining factor in the kind of media coverage a guy gets is the perception of how well he's doing. For example, I don't think Burke or Colangelo's tenures are all that similar to the abject boobery that were the Babcock-JFJ years and I'd say the fact that they're treated better is because the perception of the job they're doing is very different. I think, for instance, if you asked people here if Burke has done a better job than JFJ you'd get a near unanimous yes. 

Anthopolous is as tightlipped as any Toronto GM in my lifetime and I think his coverage tends to be fairly positive because people are still relatively high on the job he's doing.

I think a lot of things go into media perception and far be it from me to quantify their values.

I do believe that approachability factors heavily into these guys' opinions. Burke and Colangelo are very open, approachable guys. JFJ and Babcock gave off an undeserved air of confidence and seemed kind of icy with the media. AA is a humble, approachable guy, but keep in mind he doesn't have to deal with quite the coverage that Burke and even Colangelo have to deal with. GMs of the Jays always get a fair amount of slack.

But I do agree that AA's doing a great job. I just don't see that being the case with Burke and Colangelo and yet so far they've managed to avoid any really hardcore criticism.

 

[Kin]

I think a lot of things go into media perception and far be it from me to quantify their values.

I do believe that approachability factors heavily into these guys' opinions. Burke and Colangelo are very open, approachable guys. JFJ and Babcock gave off an undeserved air of confidence and seemed kind of icy with the media. AA is a humble, approachable guy, but keep in mind he doesn't have to deal with quite the coverage that Burke and even Colangelo have to deal with. GMs of the Jays always get a fair amount of slack.

But I do agree that AA's doing a great job. I just don't see that being the case with Burke and Colangelo and yet so far they've managed to avoid any really hardcore criticism.

I suppose it's your last sentence where you and I would disagree most strongly.

(although I'd probably throw in the idea that the Jays get less coverage than the Raps or that AA is doing a great job)

 

[jonlleafs]

Wins and losses may have been an oversimplification. I do think, however, that the determining factor in the kind of media coverage a guy gets is the perception of how well he's doing. For example, I don't think Burke or Colangelo's tenures are all that similar to the abject boobery that were the Babcock-JFJ years and I'd say the fact that they're treated better is because the perception of the job they're doing is very different. I think, for instance, if you asked people here if Burke has done a better job than JFJ you'd get a near unanimous yes. 

Anthopolous is as tightlipped as any Toronto GM in my lifetime and I think his coverage tends to be fairly positive because people are still relatively high on the job he's doing.

I think a lot of things go into media perception and far be it from me to quantify their values.

I do believe that approachability factors heavily into these guys' opinions. Burke and Colangelo are very open, approachable guys. JFJ and Babcock gave off an undeserved air of confidence and seemed kind of icy with the media. AA is a humble, approachable guy, but keep in mind he doesn't have to deal with quite the coverage that Burke and even Colangelo have to deal with. GMs of the Jays always get a fair amount of slack.

But I do agree that AA's doing a great job. I just don't see that being the case with Burke and Colangelo and yet so far they've managed to avoid any really hardcore criticism.

Is AA doing a great job?  I mean, I don't follow the Jays much anymore but the fact that they are 4th in the division and 10 games back is not doing well IMO.  Granted there are a bunch of pitching injuries.  So, aside from still being fairly new as a Jays GM, is there still a good vibe with AA?

 

[#1PilarFan]

I suppose it's your last sentence where you and I would disagree most strongly.

(although I'd probably throw in the idea that the Jays get less coverage than the Raps or that AA is doing a great job)

We'd better save the latter for the Blue Jays thread, and admittedly the observation on coverage is based on anecdotal evidence. I mean you go to Blue Jays forums and they're just not that active and news is harder to come by. The Raps on the other hand, I know what JV had for breakfast today.

 

[Bender]

Yeah man, I miss the days of JFJ when we were wheeling and dealing picks and prospects for less than mediocrity.

I swear, JFJ has turned a lot of Leafs fans into the girl whose last boyfriend cheated on her with such abandon that just showing up on time for a date makes you marriage material.

I'm not saying that Burke does everything well and that his rope isn't starting to get short, but still, I'm not against giving him a bit more time to get this team where it needs to be in both the short and long term. I don't think that's unreasonable.

 

[#1PilarFan]

Is AA doing a great job?  I mean, I don't follow the Jays much anymore but the fact that they are 4th in the division and 10 games back is not doing well IMO.  Granted there are a bunch of pitching injuries.  So, aside from still being fairly new as a Jays GM, is there still a good vibe with AA?

Well, he's not perfect, but he's completely rebuilt the farm system (into unquestionably one of the top farm systems in the league) and the scouting department, hired a respected manager and been pretty smart with both trades and re-signings. Yeah they just got destroyed by Oakland and I doubt they'll make the playoffs this year, but there's enough talent in the system and on the field to do it next year.

 

[Kin]

I'm not saying that Burke does everything well and that his rope isn't starting to get short, but still, I'm not against giving him a bit more time to get this team where it needs to be in both the short and long term. I don't think that's unreasonable.

I'm just joking there about the comparisons to JFJ. That be a low bar.

 

[Capital Leaf]

Was claiming he was "going to" acquire John Tavares necessary? That's the most extreme example I can remember. It gets to the point where other GMs might not want to deal with him because hey, screw him.

Well, he didn't do that. He said he was going to try. Which, I mean, there's no hubris there.

I like to think that NHL GM's, as a whole, are not quite so like clique-y teenage girls that they'd view a guy saying what he's going to try and do as being out of bounds and freeze him out of the winter meetings because of that.

Yes, you're right. He didn't say he was going to get him. He said he was going to try. But the point remains, unnecessary.

You don't think there was any eye-rolling going on in Long Island - and elsewhere - when they read that quote?

Not sure if you guys remember but he also said right before the draft that he thought Matt Duchesne was going to go 1st overall....not sure why he said that....anyways his mouth has gotten him into trouble....especially when he said he wasn't interested in a 5 year rebuild and that his job is to make the playoffs....then later on says he's not interested in making the playoff and getting smoked in the first round....

He needs to watch what he says.....and for sure he needs to change his stance on long term contracts...seriously what is so bad about having Parise signed until he is 40?  I think its a good thing....the money during the last few years of the contract is less so even if his skills diminish you could still be getting good value...there has been lots of players that play at a high level until 40 and even over....ie Jagr, Selanne, Lidstrom ect....
I would have no problem giving a player like Parise a contract like that...

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Not sure if you guys remember but he also said right before the draft that he thought Matt Duchesne was going to go 1st overall....not sure why he said that....anyways his mouth has gotten him into trouble....especially when he said he wasn't interested in a 5 year rebuild and that his job is to make the playoffs....then later on says he's not interested in making the playoff and getting smoked in the first round....

Not sure why it matters he thought the Islanders would take Duchene.

And how has his mouth gotten him into trouble?  You bring up things he said as if saying the magically made them happen.  It's his moves that have got him into trouble, not the things he says.  His ideals and actions have got him into trouble, not the mere fact of saying something.  Shouldn't confuse the two.

As I've always said, if he's not saying anything offensive, let him talk as much or as little as he wants, it's his actions/moves that matter.

 

[Jalili]

There are a lot of things he says that seem unnecessary and likely to backfire. Like saying july 1st is the teams draft day, saying the defense is as good as any group top to bottom in the league. Questionable statements that he should have known he couldn't deliver on.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

But again, the statements didn't do anything to cause any of that.  Things are as good or as bad as they are based on the moves he makes, not the words he speaks to journalists.

 

[Jalili]

But again, the statements didn't do anything to cause any of that.  Things are as good or as bad as they are based on the moves he makes, not the words he speaks to journalists.

Well yea, it doesn't affect the results, but it damages his credibility.

 

[Madferret]

Great thread / read - so if I understand things correctly Burke is now doing a "proper rebuild"? Is that the color of paint we're using this month?